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Stop biodiversity loss or we could face our own extinction, warns UN

theguardian.com

91–100 of 165 posts

Re: Stop biodiversity loss or we could face our own extinction, warns UN

#91
There is a lot of skepticism and charges of exaggeration about this threat to the planet. Is it ok to make a book recommendation here? https://www.amazon.com/Sixth-Extinction-Unnatural-History/dp... : Sixth Extinction by Elizabeth Kolbert. And it’s not a new book either. Many people have been warning about this and 2020 is a pivotal year for answers about our survival. Media..as usual..is getting hysterical about it too late and all in unison. But that doesn’t negate the overwhelming evidence that the threats are real.

Re: Stop biodiversity loss or we could face our own extinction, warns UN

#92
post #21
post #9

I agree with the big idea of conservation of biodiversity, but it really bothers me when these articles are using what seems like lies and fear tactics to convince me. 2 years? Why is it so urgent? The article doesn't explain. And "By 2050, Africa is expected to lose 50% of its birds and mammals," sounded really implausible to me. I had to do further research to determine that they are probably actually referring to…

> "50% of species" rather than "50% of population", which is a very big difference Loss of 50% of species is really bad. Population growth and climate change will only accelerate the loss. While I would welcome a decrease of the population of farm animals by 50% or 75%. https://xkcd.com/1338/ Besides, humans will never die out because of lack of "resources". Instead: - either the sun kills all intelligent life on Ear…

You're being downvoted. I too voted this post of yours down, let me explain why; sheer hubris.

> Besides, humans will never die out because of lack of "resources".

We are in grave danger of dying out; because of lack resources and because of our mind-boggling stupidity, sheer arrogance and our inability to deal with our tribal instincts.

You might (or not) have noticed that humans don't exist outside of the ecological system that our plant harbors. We're part of this ecological network, we're fully, totally, no-exceptions dependent on it. Techno-utopian dreams (nightmares, more like it) of being independent of the 'natural' world are not going to save mankind; we're part of 'nature', we exist within nature, there's no existence for humans outside nature. We need an ecosystem that provides us with calories and oxygen. The only ecosystem in existence that is capable of providing that is the very ecosystem we're working tirelessly to dismantle and destroy. So yes; we might die out because of lack of resources. We very probably will. Maybe

There's only so much damage that an ecosystem can take. And there are tons of signs that signal that our earthly ecosystem is reaching it's breaking point; - we've lost about a third of the arable land in the last forty years. - we've lost about 30% of bio diversity in the last twenty years. - we've lost almost 75% of insect biomass in the last thirty years.

The loss of insects is especially alarming; insects play a major role in all food webs on earth. The disappearance of 75% of insects (biomass, not species) has a catastrophic impact of everything further up the food chain. Yes, including humans.

We're currently working non-stop to destroy our ecosystem's capacity to carry animals in the upper food chain. Guess who's on top of that food chain. Yes, us humans.

Don't kid yourself; we're currently rushing full-speed ahead towards a full-scale ecosystem collapse. And don't fool yourself on our ability to create and maintain a man-made closed ecosystem as a replacement; we're not able to do that and we probably won't for many, many, many decades to come.

The only ecosystem we have to save our collective asses is the one we're currently punishing every day with our overproduction, overconsumption, with our fertilizers, insecticides, pesticides and waste.

It's so past high times that we - humans, as a collective - have a hard talk how much longer we want to exist as a 'civilized' species, with global trade, no struggle for survival, boundless capitalism.

Because if we keep going, we've got a dozen or so decades left. It's back to hunter gathering for the rest of mankind's existence after that.

If we leave enough prey species alive, that is. Otherwise that will be the end of mankind's short stint.

Re: Stop biodiversity loss or we could face our own extinction, warns UN

#93
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Death of insects means no honey and many dead birds. No pollination means many fallow meadows and dead plants. This means either weeds spreading or top soil depletion. This also means many crops we depend on will not survive because various helper species aren’t available. Earthworms dying mean no areation of soil, or the impact of other insects to improve the eco system. So no those other species aren’t taking up th…

This doesn't really explain human extinction. Our food supply doesn't come from a natural ecosystem. - Commercial bee populations aren't declining. (There has been an increase in Colony Collapse Disorder, but lost colonies are replaced and total bee population hasn't declined.) - The vast majority of the world's food supply does not depend on pollination from insects. To quote from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_…

Extinction will come from Climate change. And the surge of climate change refugees and subsequent migrations will impact food supply and density.

Re: Stop biodiversity loss or we could face our own extinction, warns UN

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's very vague. Collapse how? According to other comments we have already remove 60% of species, why wasn't that enough to cause a collapse. Other species take up the slack left by those removed.

Death of insects means no honey and many dead birds. No pollination means many fallow meadows and dead plants. This means either weeds spreading or top soil depletion. This also means many crops we depend on will not survive because various helper species aren’t available. Earthworms dying mean no areation of soil, or the impact of other insects to improve the eco system. So no those other species aren’t taking up th…

You forgot climate change.

Re: Stop biodiversity loss or we could face our own extinction, warns UN

#95
https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-018-07183-6 : this explains about the loss of terrestrial biomass. [..]Numerous studies are revealing that Earth’s remaining wilderness areas are increasingly important buffers against the effects of climate change and other human impacts. But, so far, the contribution of intact ecosystems has not been an explicit target in any international policy framework, such as the United Nations’ Strategic Plan for Biodiversity or the Paris climate agreement.

This must change if we are to prevent Earth’s intact ecosystems from disappearing completely.[..]

Re: Stop biodiversity loss or we could face our own extinction, warns UN

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its not just a label, its a regulated labeling term. Practically all food labelled as organic in US, EU and other regions has to be certified organic. This "marketing BS" idea is pure meme. https://www.ams.usda.gov/grades-standards/organic-labeling-s...

It’s marketing BS in the sense that organic food still uses pesticides. I guarantee you that fact would be shocking to most consumers of organic foods.

That "in a sense" is just making light of what is literally a falsehood and which introduced a string of them in the source comment: "It doesn't have any properly defined meaning ...."

Organics pesticide use is much more selective and heavily controlled than standard regulations[1]. Your notion that most consumers of organic food have unrealistic expectations ( with no survey to support that ) is really just a statement of your own expectations.

[1] https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/british-journal-of-n...

Re: Stop biodiversity loss or we could face our own extinction, warns UN

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once saw a great quote which was, "maybe food is too cheap". This is probably true, we could probably eat better quality, organic food grown in a more diverse way, it would just cost more. On the flip side, it would be more valued so we'd have less waste. I can't imagine the amount of "non-valued" food, fruit vegetables etc which end up in the bin.

Everybody here is ignoring yield per acre. RoundUp, for all its faults, drives the yield number up. More people (and particularly more cattle) are fed per acre when you use pesticides. If you banned the pesticides, it would do a lot of good, but now consider how many more acres would need to be farmed in order to keep the overall yields the same. How many acres would be cleared that would not otherwise be cleared? I…

> If you banned the pesticides, it would do a lot of good, but now consider how many more acres would need to be farmed in order to keep the overall yields the same. How many acres would be cleared that would not otherwise be cleared?

The argument above, if I'm not mistaken, is that we should produce less food, and so if that is the objective, we can farm the same acreage with a lower yield per acre just fine. Less supply is a fundamental part of the idea, in fact, to inflate food prices and reduce waste.

Re: Stop biodiversity loss or we could face our own extinction, warns UN

#98
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Death of insects means no honey and many dead birds. No pollination means many fallow meadows and dead plants. This means either weeds spreading or top soil depletion. This also means many crops we depend on will not survive because various helper species aren’t available. Earthworms dying mean no areation of soil, or the impact of other insects to improve the eco system. So no those other species aren’t taking up th…

This doesn't really explain human extinction. Our food supply doesn't come from a natural ecosystem. - Commercial bee populations aren't declining. (There has been an increase in Colony Collapse Disorder, but lost colonies are replaced and total bee population hasn't declined.) - The vast majority of the world's food supply does not depend on pollination from insects. To quote from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_…

If you think that the human food supply will not be affected by a planet-wide ecosystem collapse, you might want to think again.

Fertile soil is not just dirt. Talk to a soil expert and you'll find out very quickly how difficult it is to keep soil healthy, especially if you punish it every day with pesticides and herbicides. See you long you can maintain production if you don't have a support system of insects, arachnids, worms, fungi and so on. You'll end up with just dirt. Nothing grows in just dirt. You can try to keep up production by downing it in fertilizer, but in the end you'll just prolong the inevitable; loss of crop and collaps of production.

See how many humans you can feed by growing crops in space stations. See how long you can maintain a closed ecosystem in space.

To your last point; if you lose more than 30% to 30% of the productive workforce, you can kiss human civilization goodbye; our manufacturing is highly de-centralized, but heavily interdependent and without safety buffer.. Our infrastructure is wide-spread and needs tons of maintenance. Lose enough people and it all comes crashing down, leaving the survivors with broken machinery for which they don't have energy, don't have the knowledge to operate let alone repair if (not when) they stop working. They will also have to deal with all the poison and radioactive fallout from all the fission reactors that experience core-meltdown because nobody's around anymore to power them down over the period of ten years.

Don't kid yourself; saving what's left of this earth's ecosystem is the only shot we have. There's not techo-utopia down the road to carry us to eternity and the heat-death of the universe. Its you and me and the rest of us puny humans that will have to do the saving.

Re: Stop biodiversity loss or we could face our own extinction, warns UN

#99
This has happened many times before in more localized settings. The big difference to our situation is that the pertaining cultures were most likely plain ignorant about the dynamics that lead to their demise.

We are lucky that we do have all the knowledge but instead of taking action we constantly bathe ourselves in dystopian fantasies and social media whining (Q.E.D.) without any vision other than what seems like a global death-wish.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Third_Chimpanzee#Environme...

Re: Stop biodiversity loss or we could face our own extinction, warns UN

#100
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that what’s rational for the group is not what’s rational for the individual.

In general, sure. But here, the disaster extends to all levels, which removes that argument, no?

Unfortunately not.

There are four scenarios to consider:

1. You do what’s best for the world, and the world is saved.

2. You ignore the big picture and the world is lost.

3. You do what’s best for the world, but the world is still lost because too many others didn’t do the same.

4. You ignore the big picture and the world is still saved because enough other people did the right thing.

Regardless of what happens, you’re personally better off ignoring the big picture and hoping that other people fix the problem. If disaster is coming, at least you’ll have a better life in the remaining time you have. If it’s not, why hurt yourself?

The exception to this is if your own personal actions make the difference to avoid disaster, i.e. that you go from scenario 2 to 3 above by changing what you personally do. But the chances of that being the case are extremely tiny. You need collective action to solve these problems.

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