Recovering Emotions After 24 Years on Antidepressants • Hacker News Board

Re: Recovering Emotions After 24 Years on Antidepressants

#91

Post by acct1771 » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 4:11 PM UTC

epmaybe wrote: post #49

throwaway895237 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I hope big pharma comes up with something else than benzos and SSRIs for anxiety, so that I can be relieved from the task of living my life spiting anxiety 70% of the day. Have you tried psilocybin mushrooms or DMT? I'd been on meds for years treating depression and anxiety. A few mushroom and DMT experiences have basically cured my depression and anxiety and opened up a whole new way of looking at things.

While psilocybin and DMT are being actively researched, I would shy away from recommending people try and use schedule I drugs until they're legalised or at least scheduled differently.

"Schedule 1", as if that means a thing.

Bootlicker.

Re: Recovering Emotions After 24 Years on Antidepressants

#92

Post by ma2rten » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 4:12 PM UTC

op00to wrote: post #47

This article is absolute bullshit and quite frankly dangerous. It seems to me this woman was emotionally vulnerable and taken in by a snake oil huckster masquerading as a doctor. > Shortly after I started seeing him, my new doctor had me read the book Anatomy of an Epidemic by Robert Whitaker. Robert Whitaker's theses in that book have repeatedly been scientifically disproven. It's anti-science drivel. > The pharmace…

I am quoting from your link:

"The serotonin hypothesis of depression has not been clearly substantiated. Indeed, dogged by unreliable clinical biochemical findings and the difficulty of relating changes in serotonin activity to mood state, the serotonin hypothesis eventually achieved “conspiracy theory” status, whose avowed purpose was to enable industry to market selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs) to a gullible public."

Re: Recovering Emotions After 24 Years on Antidepressants

#93

Post by pbhjpbhj » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 4:15 PM UTC

Broken_Hippo wrote: post #28

presscast wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In all fairness, though, these aren't isolated incidents. There seems to be some subgroup of the general population that suffers from SSRIs. That's what's interesting here -- what binds these people together as a group. In other words, brushing this aside as "just a bunch of individuals" isn't useful, nor is it satisfying anyone's intellectual curiosity.

Yes, it does. Some individuals react differently. Some individuals cannot take aspirin daily for heart benefits, some cannot take ibuprofen for pain relief. Both these drugs can have reactions with other medications. It isn't an insignificant portion of the population, but we shouldn't allow those individuals create a dialogue that scares others away from trying the drug. If anything, we just need to spend a bit more…

It's my understanding that with any particular drug used to treat depression the proportion of sufferers who can't take it is high - certainly IME the proportions are not at all insignificant.

Aside: my understanding is that aspirin is no longer recommended (in mainstream medecine [in the UK]) to be used in a preventative way.

Re: Recovering Emotions After 24 Years on Antidepressants

#94

Post by thomasfedb » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 4:17 PM UTC

baumgarn wrote: post #75

op00to wrote: post #47

This article is absolute bullshit and quite frankly dangerous. It seems to me this woman was emotionally vulnerable and taken in by a snake oil huckster masquerading as a doctor. > Shortly after I started seeing him, my new doctor had me read the book Anatomy of an Epidemic by Robert Whitaker. Robert Whitaker's theses in that book have repeatedly been scientifically disproven. It's anti-science drivel. > The pharmace…

I think you're stepping into a fallacy here. Of course every thought process is bound to biological processes in the brain. So we can see this as some sort of biochemical mapping of our understanding and perception of the world, and our social status in it. Why should the solution to a negative outlook be to mess with the chemistry alone, through drugs? You can just as well ask the other way around, what kind of worl…

> Why should the solution to a negative outlook be to mess with the chemistry alone, through drugs?

Well perhaps because it works?

> We identified 28 552 citations and of these included 522 trials comprising 116 477 participants. In terms of efficacy, all antidepressants were more effective than placebo, with ORs ranging between 2·13 (95% credible interval [CrI] 1·89–2·41) for amitriptyline and 1·37 (1·16–1·63) for reboxetine.

Source: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6...

Of course there's issues with publication bias, but this is the best evidence we have to work with. Psychotherapy ("talking") also works, and so the teaching I've received tells me to prescribe both in tandem, although the drugs "alone" do help. I'm a student doctor.

> I find it quite frankly disturbing that the solution to such a learned insecurity should be just drugs.

I think your implicit suggestion here is that the correct treatment is unlearning. I suggest that this is not always possible. The plausible mechanism is that damage during development might result in "built in" changes that can't be talked away.

Re: Recovering Emotions After 24 Years on Antidepressants

#95

Post by blurbleblurble » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 4:27 PM UTC

kryogen1c wrote: post #88

darkerside wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's assume you are right and the positive effects were completely attributed to placebo effect. If placebo effect is an effective treatment that results in a cure, what exactly is your complaint?

> If placebo effect is an effective treatment that results in a cure, what exactly is your complaint? It's not reproducible because it's not medicine.

Your idea of medicine is missing something important: the complex, messy, slippery, irrational, dynamic process called "healing."

Re: Recovering Emotions After 24 Years on Antidepressants

#96

Post by DubiousPusher » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 4:29 PM UTC

I appreciate this person sharing their story. If you are struggling with mental illness please be cautious before following this person's example. Her circumstances may be very different from your own. If you want to consider a simillar course please talk to your healthcare professionals and the people in your support network first.

For every story of someone successfully discontinuing psychoactive there is one that ends in disaster.

Re: Recovering Emotions After 24 Years on Antidepressants

#97

Post by braindongle » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 4:30 PM UTC

Those of us in the field of psychiatric research encounter innumerable illness narratives of this sort. Everyone has their own story to tell about what went wrong and what helps.

While these anecdotes may be of value to the storyteller, they are at best worthless if you are serious about understanding your options in mental health. Evidence-based psychiatry is messy, but good people are working hard to build credible evidence, and not just for pills. "Everything is biased by pharma money" is often said by people on the sidelines. Psychiatric services researchers know better.

Interested in meditation vs medication for depression? Start with a systematic review in a reputable journal, like this: https://goo.gl/yN1asm

Re: Recovering Emotions After 24 Years on Antidepressants

#98

Post by tomnipotent » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 4:32 PM UTC

op00to wrote: post #62

mgamache wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are issues with the simple Serotonin model: With SSRIs it takes weeks to see an effect, but Serotonin levels are elevated within days why the delay? (There are theories, but all point to Serotonin as a secondary effect) Also, antidepressants work in a minority of people (20%-25%), but Serotonin levels are effected in almost all users. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmedhealth/PMH0087089/

That's correct - Serotonin is not the only factor. That still refutes the author's hypothesis that mental illness is some sort of personality defect.

Our society considers it a personality defect because people suffering from mental health issues have behavior that deviates too far from the average.

It wasn't that long ago that people thought cancer patients were contagious.

Re: Recovering Emotions After 24 Years on Antidepressants

#99

Post by darkerside » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 4:34 PM UTC

kryogen1c wrote: post #88

darkerside wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's assume you are right and the positive effects were completely attributed to placebo effect. If placebo effect is an effective treatment that results in a cure, what exactly is your complaint?

> If placebo effect is an effective treatment that results in a cure, what exactly is your complaint? It's not reproducible because it's not medicine.

Did you mean it's not medicine because it's not reproducible? I don't really understand the statement either way tbh.

Let's acknowledge that my question also assumed the most favorable scenario for your argument. Most objective observers would agree there is a nonzero chance that the treatment was not totally based on placebo effect, but rather on undiscovered science. You do understand that, right? That not all science has been discovered, there are many things we do not know or understand, and yet are true. If we cling to what has been proven and refute anything else, we freeze all progress. I can think of nothing less scientific.

Re: Recovering Emotions After 24 Years on Antidepressants

#100

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Oct 07, 2018, 4:39 PM UTC

kryogen1c wrote: post #71

dwaltrip wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you believe she is lying about doing much better after quitting her meds and trying other treatments such as meditation and group therapy, the article is not complete bullshit. That being said, I would not be surprised if there is truth to what you said about that book.

> Unless you believe she is lying about doing much better after quitting her meds This is an unscientific and inaccurate. The placebo and nocebo affects are real with actual health effects. Sometimes drugs don't make it to market because they have positive effects less effective than placebo.

[deleted]