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I worked in an Amazon warehouse. Bernie Sanders is right to target them

theguardian.com

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Re: I worked in an Amazon warehouse. Bernie Sanders is right to target them

#91

Post by swarnie_ »

dnomad wrote: post #80
swarnie_ wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not even sure why people work there. The warehouses are universally known to be shitty places but people sign up anyway. Surely if its terrible and no one will work there they will have to improve or pay more? Or am i misunderstanding basic economics?

You're not misunderstanding anything, the problem is there's really nothing true about the anti-Amazon media propaganda. It's important to separate the media fantasy from the facts in the real world. In the media fantasy: 1. Amazon workers are so desperate for jobs they have no choice but to work for Amazon under prison-like conditions. 2. Amazon warehouse jobs are targeted at "left behind" workers who have no other…

Thank you for your post, a really different and interesting perspective. I can already tell it won't go down well on this board though.

Re: I worked in an Amazon warehouse. Bernie Sanders is right to target them

#92

Post by badpun »

dragonwriter wrote: post #18
andrewla wrote: post #14

There are two main points of information here that make Amazon the target. One is its abuse of workers: limiting breaks, to the point of penalizing bathroom breaks, and setting unreasonably high performance demands. The latter, I think, being attributed as the source of the former. Setting a wage floor here does not seem to be intuitively helpful, as Amazon will still fire employees who fail to meet their performance…

> The other is the issue of Amazon employees receiving food stamps (now called SNAP, apparently). This one seems particularly odd to me, because I'm not sure how to interpret it. You should interpret it as sign that even among much of what passes for the left in America, corporate feudalism is deeply entrenched in consciousness. Instead of meeting basic needs being seen as a responsibility of public authority, to be…

Define “basic needs”. People can survive (have shelter and not die from starvation or malnutrition) on way less than the minimum wage. So, it’s already about more than the basic needs.

Re: I worked in an Amazon warehouse. Bernie Sanders is right to target them

#93

Post by gagege »

zippzom wrote: post #77
gagege wrote: post #70

Why does everyone ignore the fact that employment at Amazon is voluntary? When the employee was hired, they made an agreement that the payment was a fair trade for the work to be done. If it turns out that the pay was not fair after all, which it sounds like it isn't, then the employee should simply stop working there, because Amazon isn't holding up their end of the bargain. The reason this continues to be an issue…

The issue is not that the employee is being underpaid (although that is a problem), it's that the underpayment is only possible because the government (i.e. taxpayers) is also giving money to that employee. If that safety net weren't in place then Amazon wouldn't be able to employee these people at these rates since it wouldn't be enough for people to survive on. Essentially, the government is subsidizing Amazon. Als…

I think your first paragraph is saying the same thing I said. Amazon-like companies can pay less because of the safety-nets.

I get what you're saying in the rest of your comment and I can confirm that it's easy to take less pay because of time constraints. Maybe "fair" isn't the right word exactly, but I will stand by it being voluntary.

Re: I worked in an Amazon warehouse. Bernie Sanders is right to target them

#94

Post by jdpedrie »

ameister14 wrote: post #82
sokoloff wrote: post #36

IMO, it is never proper for the legislature to target an individual or individual company. It's perfectly fine for enforcement agencies (OSHA, FDA, IRS, FAA, FTC, SEC, etc) to enforce policy/law on individuals/companies who have been found in violation, but to originally target individuals with the force of government lawmaking is a dramatic overreach of power, IMO. If Senator Sanders et al want to target all compani…

>it is never proper for the legislature to target an individual or individual company. It's perfectly fine for enforcement agencies (OSHA, FDA, IRS, FAA, FTC, SEC, etc) to enforce policy/law on individuals/companies who have been found in violation, but to originally target individuals with the force of government lawmaking is a dramatic overreach of power, IMO. I don't agree. It's been done before, many times, and t…

"To the benefit of the people" and "does violence to the rule of law" are not mutually exclusive, at least in the short term.

Re: I worked in an Amazon warehouse. Bernie Sanders is right to target them

#95

Post by [deleted] »

archagon wrote: post #90
gagege wrote: post #70

Why does everyone ignore the fact that employment at Amazon is voluntary? When the employee was hired, they made an agreement that the payment was a fair trade for the work to be done. If it turns out that the pay was not fair after all, which it sounds like it isn't, then the employee should simply stop working there, because Amazon isn't holding up their end of the bargain. The reason this continues to be an issue…

"Why does everyone ignore the fact that is voluntary?" Some business arrangements are exploitative by their incentives, even if they are "fair".

[deleted]

Re: I worked in an Amazon warehouse. Bernie Sanders is right to target them

#96

Post by maxxxxx »

swarnie_ wrote: post #75
maxxxxx wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of people don't have other options so they take whatever they can get in order to survive. Why don't victims of domestic abuse leave immediately but stay for years?

> Why don't victims of domestic abuse leave immediately but stay for years? Yeah never understood that one either if i'm honest.

Maybe it would be good to try to understand the reasons behind this. You may not agree but you may learn that the advice "if they don't like it they can just go somewhere else" is not useful.

Re: I worked in an Amazon warehouse. Bernie Sanders is right to target them

#97

Post by LitFan »

394549 wrote: post #46
LitFan wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a society we've decided that we do, because we are. The shoddy treatment of Amazon's employees has been publicized repeatedly for years. The issue is that while the average person is lead to believe the notion that they can work hard and make enough to have a comfortable living, they can only afford it at the expense of others. The wealthy will not let that be at their expense - they want it to be at the expense o…

> As a society we've decided that we do, because we are. The shoddy treatment of Amazon's employees has been publicized repeatedly for years. The operations of the market, with its vast information asymmetries , does not amount to a "decision" to endorse the particular behaviors of its participants. And even if Amazon's labor practices have been reported somewhere , they haven't been reported everywhere , and it's no…

You and your sibling comment are right - it's too harsh to say that society has decided they're okay with this treatment. However, I believe people need to be more aware of the decisions they make daily.

Rather than passively supporting Amazon because it's the most convenient or cheapest option, investigate why they might be able to offer their service at a rate other companies in their space can't.

I don't believe it's right to assume or enforce that companies disclose all of their business practices to their customers. Those practices should be audited by a regulatory body to assess whether they're humane or ethical.

> I have a lot of confidence that many of Amazon's labor practices would be banned if they were put up for a straight-up national referendum.

On this, I'm sure you're right. Which leads me to an interesting question:

Assuming: 1) There are companies engaging in activity the majority of their potential customers would find immoral 2) One of these companies is able to provide a superior product or service at a reduced rate to their competitors 3) Information about these immoral practices is available to those customers (though they have to seek it out)

Why do people still support the company? Shouldn't people suspect something is fishy with that company's offering?

My assumption to begin with is that consumers were turning a blind eye in order to keep using the service. That may not be the case.

Maybe it's that they don't have the time or capacity to evaluate this for themselves (especially for the number of businesses we all depend on daily). Maybe it's a tragedy of the commons.

How can we fix this?

Re: I worked in an Amazon warehouse. Bernie Sanders is right to target them

#98

Post by BloodyHands »

sokoloff wrote: post #36

IMO, it is never proper for the legislature to target an individual or individual company. It's perfectly fine for enforcement agencies (OSHA, FDA, IRS, FAA, FTC, SEC, etc) to enforce policy/law on individuals/companies who have been found in violation, but to originally target individuals with the force of government lawmaking is a dramatic overreach of power, IMO. If Senator Sanders et al want to target all compani…

you are insane

get out of the usa

you have no idea how life works

you have no idea how democracy works

Re: I worked in an Amazon warehouse. Bernie Sanders is right to target them

#100

Post by docker_up »

unstatusthequo wrote: post #84

My guess is Amazon is working as fast as possible to automate the warehouses. Then people will complain they lost their jobs...

Full automation is likely impossible. Ask Elon Musk about his problems with trying to fully automate Tesla production.
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