Apple now strives to design and build products that last as long as possible • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple now strives to design and build products that last as long as possible

#91

Post by llampx » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 1:07 PM UTC

krn wrote: post #59

beloch wrote: post #12

You know what helps products last longer and reduces waste at the same time? Repairability . The repairability of apple products is so poor that even Apple can't fix most of their own products without replacing surprisingly large portions of any given Apple device. End user repairability has been utterly neglected. Disassembly is frequently impossible without causing damage, and components such as batteries are frequ…

> I'll believe point #2 when Apple stops making every succeeding generation of their products harder for end-users to repair. Shiftphones[1] can be completely dissembled and repaired by the end-users, and they don't look any different from other smartphone. So, it's certainly possible to do. However, I don't think that's what an average Apple customer prioritizes. "The thinnest and lightest iPhone ever" sells much be…

As people start keeping their phones longer, they will start preferring phones that are more durable and repairable. Making cars that break after a few thousand miles worked out for GM and Chrysler right up until the Japanese and German competition arrived.

Re: Apple now strives to design and build products that last as long as possible

#92

Post by einr » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 1:07 PM UTC

volkl48 wrote: post #60

mrpopo wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the context. I am extremely doubtful that a company like Apple is going to commit to durability, parts reuse and recycling. Repairability score of iPhones are not so bad, but the latest MacBooks are unrepairable.

They can be repaired in the sense that everything in them can be replaced. However they've integrated a lot of components so a lot of things that would traditionally be able to be replaced individually can't be. You basically have 3 major components in the current Macbook Pro line: - Logic board - MB/CPU/SSD/RAM - Top Case - Keyboard/Trackpad/Battery/upper shell - Display Then you have minor miscellaneous parts like…

I believe the 2018s make the headphone jack one as well.

That's cool, that'll make it easy for them to remove it in 2019 and claim there wasn't enough space for it.

Re: Apple now strives to design and build products that last as long as possible

#93

Post by icantdrive55 » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 1:09 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #20

beloch wrote: post #12

You know what helps products last longer and reduces waste at the same time? Repairability . The repairability of apple products is so poor that even Apple can't fix most of their own products without replacing surprisingly large portions of any given Apple device. End user repairability has been utterly neglected. Disassembly is frequently impossible without causing damage, and components such as batteries are frequ…

> How easy is it for end-users to replace the battery in that off-warranty 5S? Oh. I see. I did it in about 45 minutes the first time, and could do another in 20-30 minutes pretty easily. It's now a 5-year old phone. 10 minutes labor per year is OK in my book. How easy is it for end-users to replace the clutch in that off-warranty Civic? For that matter, how many people even change their own brakes (one of the easies…

"For that matter, how many people even change their own brakes (one of the easiest DIY tasks, IMO)?"

Most poor people, middle class (what's left).

Although rental agreements, and section 8 leases prohibit working on any vechicle on said properties.

The average person should know how to repace at least the front disc brake pads. (Jack, torx, or 12-13 mm socket, c-champ to push fluid back into reservoir, and pads. 2 hour job.)

Yes, a manual clutch is another story, but if you have access to a garage, or lot, it's a weekend job.

Still it's two jacks, socket set, 3/8 torq wrench (most shops don't bother torque), flashlight, jack stands, clutch pack set, with includes plastic clutch alignment tool. It's a long weekend job. It goes quicker if you have a friend who's done one before, or a strong young person who's been under a vechicle at least a few times.

So yes, there are so many of us who just don't have the funds to hire people to do things.

I am one of those people. Hell, I still cut my hair with a vacuume cleaner?

Poor people are in a bind when trying to fix their jalopy because rental housing is so restrictive. (In other parts of the country, I imagine it's not so bad, but in the Bay Area landlords usually have 42 pages of cant's.)

My point is so many Americans just don't have the luxury of having someone else do the work anymore.

In my world, the repairability of a product is of utmost importance.

Then again, I am stumped over anyone spending $1000 for a dumb phone. Giving money to a company who builds their products overseas, and can't figure out what to do with their profits.

I do give them props for security though. I guess if I was important enough, iron clad security would be worth a lot more than a grand?

I will use my three Apple products until they die.

I will then rely on the surplus of perfecly good products discarded by the wealthy, or people whom think things will will always be ok.

Sorry about the rant. There's so many products that are unfeasible, or impossible to fix. It's like the government forgot The Sherman Anti-trust Act? I feel weird about bringing up the Act? Why? Because we are talking about a phone. A dumb phone? It's not so dumb when you can't get schematics on on the electronics in your boiler, or can't get repair codes off your vechicle.

Re: Apple now strives to design and build products that last as long as possible

#94

Post by lloeki » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 1:10 PM UTC

dalbasal wrote: post #69

This is an interestingly a reverse of Europe's (effective) policy and on greening the auto-market. Most European jurisdictions effectively ^ tax (and otherwise discourage) old cars wuth a higher rate. For an example from my country. A 2007 2L Passat is a common old car currently taxed @ €1,000 pa. It quickly escalates to 2,000 as engine size/emissions increase. Passats are decent quality cars with long lived engines,…

> A 2007 2L Passat

Turns out my SO got her hand on a second hand '06 New Beetle which has a TDI engine with a CO2 production of ~146g/km. The car has 300000km on the clock.

> 600 kg co2

How did you get there? I seem to miss something to make sense of this value.

Over the 12 years the car has been on the road it emitted:

    300000 km * 146 g/km => 44 metric tons

The equivalent engine today is the 1.6L BlueMotion and emits ~85g/km. That's 40% less, about 18 tons saved.

But such a churn is quick at first yet soon enough has diminishing returns, as the low hanging fruits get reaped until we reach minimal ICE emissions or even zero emission, then (environmentally) you'll soon want the longest living cars, so this phenomenon should only be temporary.

Re: Apple now strives to design and build products that last as long as possible

#95

Post by scarface74 » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 1:10 PM UTC

badpun wrote: post #83

scarface74 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What security flaws do you expect in older versions of apps that were able to escape the iOS sandbox that were later fixed by updating the applications? What exploit has there been in an app that let it exfiltrate data from another app or read your web browsing history for any version of iOS? As far as Google, it’s no surprise that Google abandoned older protocols. That’s kind of their MO....

I'm talking about security fixes to non-newest versions of iOS. Apple just does not do them.

To nitpick actually they have.

IOS 6.1.2 came out 6 months after iOS 7

But what unpatched security flaws have been reported in older versions of iOS that would allow an attacker to install a keylogger or otherwise exfiltrate user data?

Re: Apple now strives to design and build products that last as long as possible

#96

Post by llampx » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 1:10 PM UTC

dalbasal wrote: post #69

This is an interestingly a reverse of Europe's (effective) policy and on greening the auto-market. Most European jurisdictions effectively ^ tax (and otherwise discourage) old cars wuth a higher rate. For an example from my country. A 2007 2L Passat is a common old car currently taxed @ €1,000 pa. It quickly escalates to 2,000 as engine size/emissions increase. Passats are decent quality cars with long lived engines,…

Europe was also all-in on diesels and focussed on reducing CO2 emissions, and look how that worked out for its cities. We have to admit that the EU is no panacea, and much of the legislation it passes is also written by and for self-interest groups and lobbyists. Take the recent copyright law as an example.

Re: Apple now strives to design and build products that last as long as possible

#97

Post by llampx » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 1:13 PM UTC

lloeki wrote: post #94

dalbasal wrote: post #69

This is an interestingly a reverse of Europe's (effective) policy and on greening the auto-market. Most European jurisdictions effectively ^ tax (and otherwise discourage) old cars wuth a higher rate. For an example from my country. A 2007 2L Passat is a common old car currently taxed @ €1,000 pa. It quickly escalates to 2,000 as engine size/emissions increase. Passats are decent quality cars with long lived engines,…

> A 2007 2L Passat Turns out my SO got her hand on a second hand '06 New Beetle which has a TDI engine with a CO2 production of ~146g/km. The car has 300000km on the clock. > 600 kg co2 How did you get there? I seem to miss something to make sense of this value. Over the 12 years the car has been on the road it emitted: 300000 km * 146 g/km => 44 metric tons The equivalent engine today is the 1.6L BlueMotion and emit…

Its not only about tons of CO2 saved, since that can be fixed by trees. Asthma-causing particulates and other cancer-causing compounds are completely ignored in that calculation, not to mention the opportunity cost of not having that $25k go into something else, like a house.

Re: Apple now strives to design and build products that last as long as possible

#98

Post by llampx » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 1:16 PM UTC

vbezhenar wrote: post #51

EZ-E wrote: post #21

Real talk here : what makes an iPhone slow after 2 years? - the battery aging? - the apps using more ressources than before? - the newer OS version using more ressources than before? I've started using my old Android phone again after it being unused 3 years (Nexus 4), the apps are extremely slow now, the camera takes forever to open : what's going on? Computers don't age as much

I had iPhone 4S, it was insanely fast and snappy with iOS 6, become a bit sluggish with iOS 7 and very slow with iOS 8 and 9, almost unusable. I jailbroken it and installed iOS 6 and apparently it was fast again, so it's not about battery or anything, it's purely software which expects very fast CPU and huge amounts of memory. Mobile hardware evolved significantly over the last years, so it's understandable that deve…

Or, some software developers and/or PMs just got lazy with development and optimization, and greedy with the amount of data that could be harvested. A framework here, a library there and it adds up pretty quickly.

Re: Apple now strives to design and build products that last as long as possible

#99

Post by berbec » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 1:17 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #77

wrycoder wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You haven’t yet enjoyed replacing the rusted pads and rotors on an eight year old New England car.

Oh, but I have... 30 years here (Cambridge and Southern NH) and every one of mine and many of my friends have been done by me. Air tools, acetone/ATF mix, and a propane torch are your friend at times.

If you have any of that, it really help! I end up going with channel-locks and a six-foot pole.

Re: Apple now strives to design and build products that last as long as possible

#100

Post by tonyarkles » Mon, Sep 17, 2018, 1:17 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #77

wrycoder wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You haven’t yet enjoyed replacing the rusted pads and rotors on an eight year old New England car.

Oh, but I have... 30 years here (Cambridge and Southern NH) and every one of mine and many of my friends have been done by me. Air tools, acetone/ATF mix, and a propane torch are your friend at times.

You forgot your 4lb baby sledgehammer to "encourage" the rotor to pop off :)