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Microwave Weapons Are Suspect in Ills of U.S. Embassy Workers

nytimes.com

91–100 of 126 posts

Re: Microwave Weapons Are Suspect in Ills of U.S. Embassy Workers

#91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cuba has been led by a dictatorship regime so I can see why US would like to change it. You don't need propaganda to see for yourself that Cuba has no free elections. So far US used sanctions instead of war and it seems it didn't work.

> You don't need propaganda to see for yourself that Cuba has no free elections. So far I'm with you. But so what? You seem to be implying that if a country's political system is non-democratic, then third parties are justified in intervening. I would have thought that the whole concept of national sovereignty implied precisely the opposite: that each nation can decide for itself what system of political representati…

The "nation" can't decide its political system if the government imprisons and kills the opposition. It's like saying that slavery should have been left legal until the slaves decide to change the law. All humans should have human rights.

Re: Microwave Weapons Are Suspect in Ills of U.S. Embassy Workers

#92
post #10

RF/Microwave EE here. I actually tried this on myself several years ago with no effect. Specifically 20W at C-band into a 10 dBi standard gain horn a few feet away, pulse mod to 1 kHz. That was still not near enough power density. While it’s plausible, it would take a big effort to affect this many people. The peak power densities, as described in the paper, would be tens of W/cm^2; e.g. radar transmitters and big an…

>> It would also be very easy to detect with basic test equipment

Like laptops, cellphones not working. Sparks from coke cans. Chocolate bars melting in pockets. I'd think the fire risk would be too great to attempt this in an uncontrolled public space.

Re: Microwave Weapons Are Suspect in Ills of U.S. Embassy Workers

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cuba has been led by a dictatorship regime so I can see why US would like to change it. You don't need propaganda to see for yourself that Cuba has no free elections. So far US used sanctions instead of war and it seems it didn't work.

The US has installed or supported more than a few dictators... Do you really think that American intervention has anything to do with democracy?

I believe people want to promote/support their values and it's the same with the governments. U.S. always tried to install democracies (i.e after ww2, Afganistan) but I've never seen a dictatorship installing or promoting democracies.

Re: Microwave Weapons Are Suspect in Ills of U.S. Embassy Workers

#94
Lol it's 100% mass hysteria ( "contagious anxiety" )

EVEN if it wasn't, it WOULD be in part. We KNOW it would infect people who weren't actually interfered with through this magic.

So media..... an example of a story that would be believable would be we think x% were affected and y% was through "contagious anxiety".

Re: Microwave Weapons Are Suspect in Ills of U.S. Embassy Workers

#95
post #47

So in this thread we have mrtksn calling this lousy journalism, and madeuptemcappt saying it’s a well-researched and cited article. So which is it?

It's a series of fairly unlikely assertions backed with plausible looking narrative and interviews. Pretty typical for the NYT these days, and very sad. IEEE Spectrum did a series of articles on this; I thought the mostly likely explanation was ultrasound jammers and intermodulation distortion. Aka defective gear; which is why the same thing seems to have happened in China as well as Cuba.

There's a link to one of the IEEE articles here https://spectrum.ieee.org/semiconductors/devices/how-we-reve...

with a recording of sounds recorded at the embassy and their attempts to reproduce it. To me the microwave theory seems a better fit.

Re: Microwave Weapons Are Suspect in Ills of U.S. Embassy Workers

#97

My theory remains that a couple Americans were paid to fake symptoms which others then grew convinced they also suffered.

I don't buy the theory, I think one person convinced everyone else by accident.

But if you want to do this I'd run with a few people got a some sort of disease not common (STD / a parasite) and the others then grew convinced they also suffered. Less of a conspiracy, an STD works well cause it means people will lie.

The evil country X could never have guesses at the USA's incompetence in dealing with this.

Re: Microwave Weapons Are Suspect in Ills of U.S. Embassy Workers

#98
post #10

RF/Microwave EE here. I actually tried this on myself several years ago with no effect. Specifically 20W at C-band into a 10 dBi standard gain horn a few feet away, pulse mod to 1 kHz. That was still not near enough power density. While it’s plausible, it would take a big effort to affect this many people. The peak power densities, as described in the paper, would be tens of W/cm^2; e.g. radar transmitters and big an…

>> It would also be very easy to detect with basic test equipment Like laptops, cellphones not working. Sparks from coke cans. Chocolate bars melting in pockets. I'd think the fire risk would be too great to attempt this in an uncontrolled public space.

It doesn’t take THAT much power. The paper says effects took an average power of ~1 mW/cm^2, with a 0.0001 duty factor. That’s not much from a heating standpoint, but extremely strong for detectability. That average power is about what your phone delivers to your head.

The peak power is massive, but it doesn’t last long, so the energy is weak. To get the equivalent peak power, you’d have to put 10k phones against your head.

If you put your head in a 1 kW microwave oven, and pulse modulated the magnetron, your could maybe get the effect. It would make an entertaining YouTube video.

Re: Microwave Weapons Are Suspect in Ills of U.S. Embassy Workers

#99
post #7

Okay I'm skeptical. On the one side some 'bad other' could be using an undefined device to attack only American people, only in foreign lands, and for uncertain reasons. That narrative conveniently fuels paranoia and makes for good reading. Alternative explanations exist, based on well established medicine, which I think need air time, link below. Now, I'm all for exciting stories but this one keeps being resurrected…

[deleted]

Re: Microwave Weapons Are Suspect in Ills of U.S. Embassy Workers

#100
post #10

RF/Microwave EE here. I actually tried this on myself several years ago with no effect. Specifically 20W at C-band into a 10 dBi standard gain horn a few feet away, pulse mod to 1 kHz. That was still not near enough power density. While it’s plausible, it would take a big effort to affect this many people. The peak power densities, as described in the paper, would be tens of W/cm^2; e.g. radar transmitters and big an…

I'll quote Allan H. Frey, who more-or-less(preceeded by some italian engineers, iirc) invented the entire field, from 1996 on usenet:

>There is a microwave hearing effect that occurs at very low power densities and a skull vibration effect that occurs when very high energies are applied to the head. There is some confusion in the literature because the vibration effect has often been referred to as a microwave hearing effect, but it is not the same phenomena.

And, quoting from a different page:

>In fact, Frey and Hackett said the microwave hearing effect does not occur with millimeter waves (which range from 3 to 300 GHz).

>

>"On the other hand, if your millimeter waves have enough energy density, are powerful enough, there are other phenomena where you could cause sort of a concussion kind of effect which could conceivably be heard by bone conduction. It would transfer through skin to bone and bone into the inner ear," Frey said. He said it might be possible to modulate such energy to create the perception of some intelligible sounds. "But off hand, I can't tell you what kind of power levels you might need to do that," he said. Hackett dismissed the idea of transmitting intelligible sounds to the head with MMWs as pure speculation.

Note how the mythbusters episode where they 'busted' that myth seems like an (unintentional) sham:

They used a 9.4 GHz radar dish (courtesy of the DoD) with ultra short impulses spread out over long periods. That fits NEITHER of the above.

Someone, on, OF FUCKING COURSE, /r/conspiracy, quite a while ago, pointed out something related:

https://www.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/77v6t1/reddit_d...

Which points out that the boxspring mattresses used in many Hotels might strongly amplify the ability to induce tissue damage, which would explain this part:

"The blaring, grinding noise jolted the American diplomat from his bed in a Havana hotel. He moved just a few feet, and there was silence. He climbed back into bed. Inexplicably, the agonizing sound hit him again. It was as if he’d walked through some invisible wall cutting straight through his room."

From https://www.apnews.com/697536f065e6470eaa5ccfc35061e7ce

Of course, back then, almost everyone dismissed this. Or did they? (Insert dramatic music here)

Here, some more quotes from Allan H. Frey, via http://www.the-scientist.com/?articles.view/articleNo/32648/...:

>For example, after my colleagues and I published in 1975 that exposure to very weak microwave radiation opens the regulatory interface known as the blood brain barrier (bbb), a critical protection for the brain, the Brooks AFB group selected a contractor to supposedly replicate our experiment. For 2 years, this contractor presented data at scientific conferences stating that microwave radiation had no effect on the bbb. After much pressure from the scientific community, he finally revealed that he had not, in fact, replicated our work. We had injected dye into the femoral vein of lab rats after exposure to microwaves and observed the dye in the brain within 5 minutes. The Brooks contractor had stuck a needle into the animals’ bellies and sprayed the dye onto their intestines. Thus it is no surprise that when he looked at the brain 5 minutes later, he did not see any dye; the dye had yet to make it into the circulatory system.

Some more points:

https://nyaspubs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/j.... From 1975 presumably what Frey refers to in the above paragraph, entitled "NEURAL FUNCTION AND BEHAVIOR: DEFINING THE RELATIONSHIP"

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3109/15368378209040347 here, a review from 1982, very much related to the previous quote, entitled "Microwaves and the Blood-Brain Barrier: A Review"

http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.3109/15368378309040355 and here is a letter correcting that review, sort of. Unfortunately, this letter never got cited in the scientific literature, while the above review did.

For more bibliographical information, one might also wish to examine this email by Allen L. Barker from 2002:

https://archive.fo/V3r0Y (THEORETICALLY also available here, but the domain behind this, http://iubio.bio.indiana.edu/, is unreachable from large parts of the internet from what I can tell: http://www.bio.net/mm/neur-sci/2002-May/048366.html)

Of course, EVERYTHING surrounding this (but NOT the subject matter ITSELF) involves a hell of a lot of: * conspiracy theory * fringe science (aka protoscience) * pseudoscience

levels of insanity, as you can likely tell from some of the above. This makes it extremely hard to filter through any of this. The EU did a large report on RF safety a while ago:

https://ec.europa.eu/health/sites/health/files/scientific_co...

If you check it, Frey's papers on this remain oddly absent from it.

Oh and... We could likely find a lot more existing discussion on this, but unfortunately, the emf-bio archives got expunged from ftp://iubio.bio.indiana.edu/usenet/bionet/emf-bio without explanation. If anyone at the University of Indiana wants to go digging into backup tapes, I'd appreciate it.

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