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Using John Varney's rhythm wheel to differentiate 3/4 and 6/8 time signatures

megan-vo.github.io

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Re: Using John Varney's rhythm wheel to differentiate 3/4 and 6/8 time signatures

#91
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you, probably 100% at the end of the day. But I don't agree with your first post that seemed to tell readers that there was no distinction. The convention is that these two time signatures stand-in for two different actual perceptually different music feelings. The "tactus" (the place we feel the beat) certainly can be subjectively moved to different levels in the hierarchy. Furthermore, you're right tha…

> I basically was taking issue with seeing a reply to a post that was highlighting this difference that is a real perceptual one (not just a notational one, but described, unfortunately, with focus on notation) with the claim "there is no difference". It is impossible to quantify or intellectually stratify feelings and perceptions. All I have to say is "I feel it differently" and now your stratification is incomplete…

So we do agree. You're saying nothing new to me, but you're showing that we share understanding in the end.

The whole point is that when we communicate, we use (often mediocre) conventions.

3/4 and 6/8 are notational things with nothing but convention determining their meaning. But same with the entire notation system, it's just shapes with no meaning until we assign meaning to it.

The only really valid theory of music is one that embraces the subjective psychology of it (music cognition etc).

To say that music where one can't find the beat is "in 6" is already weird. It's only "in 6" if there's something about a 6-beat meter in the mind of some person, listener or performer. We can listen to something together and you can experience it in 6 while I experience it in 7, if we're capable of those different subjective interpretations (and the sound content will affect whether that's easier or harder).

The whole point is that while the prejudicial approaches to music are wrong (music is 100% subjective), the purpose of the original article (by my charitable interpretation) is to describe two different subjective experiences that are possible, hemiola being about the most basic introduction to such concepts for beginners.

So, I took your original "no difference" comment to be a denial of the existence of two distinct subjective experiences just because the notation can be seen (ignoring convention) to have no indication of the difference.

You can see how I could take your post that way. I think it's really valuable for anyone learning about music to understand these subjective experiences and their differences. We agree that it's crappy to assert that these subjective experiences are in the notation, but I was willing to see "6/8 vs 3/4" as a communication stand-in for the subjective difference that is real.

Surely, some people say "6/8 vs 3/4" and mean to assert some difference that is just not really there. And others use it to refer to the hemiola distinction of subjectively parsing an accent in these two ways. The former is a delusion, the latter is a valid insight.

P.S. In case you haven't seen it, one of the neatest rhythm things out there is http://bouncemetronome.com/ — it goes intro demostrating beautifully any level of polyrhythms, including offset ones evolving ones, rhythms that phase over time because of differently changing tempos, and a ludicriously long list of other things… a fun crazy tool to get anyone into stuff way beyond whatever conventional music system they may have learned otherwise. I doubt much of it would be entirely novel to you, but you may still appreciate it. The options are enormous, hard to find the limits.

Re: Using John Varney's rhythm wheel to differentiate 3/4 and 6/8 time signatures

#92
post #67

Bug: rapid calls to 3/4 get parsed as 6/8 1. Take the 3/4 example and convince yourself you fully understand the difference between 3/4 time and 6/8 time. 2. Let your ostensible understanding lead you to listen to a waltz. 3. Get familiar enough with the waltz that you can sing along with the melody. 4. Now ask yourself: does the melody sound like it divide up into groups of measures, or is the melody just freely mov…

I don't think genre literacy counts as a workaround: I think it's really the definition of what is or is not 6/8. The 6/8 time wheel gives a heavy bass drum on the four count. I don't notice such a thing in the waltz every other measure. I'm more familiar with 4/4 time due to the genres I know well, but it's a similar thing there. I used to think that the 1 and the 2 beats were indistinguishable - you can start off b…

> The 6/8 time wheel gives a heavy bass drum on the four count. I don't notice such a thing in the waltz every other measure.

Here's 6/8 beat hierarchy:

Beat 1: Strongest

Beat 2: Weak

Beat 3: Weak

Beat 4: Strong

Beat 5: Weak

Beat 6: Weak

The first beat of the measure is the strongest. Beat 4 is strong but typically not as strong as the first beat.

Now here is the 3/4 beat hierarchy for many types of pieces that are in 3/4 time:

Measure 1 Beat 1: Strongest

Measure 1 Beat 2: Weak

Measure 1 Beat 3: Weak

Measure 2 Beat 1: Strong

Measure 2 Beat 2: Weak

Measure 2 Beat 3: Weak

The first beat of the measure 1 is the strongest. Beat 1 of measure 2 is strong but typically not as strong as the first beat of measure 1. These two measure groups typically continue for the entire piece, as in a waltz.

The two are functionally equivalent in terms of rhythm.

It's confusing because there are three variables: the number of beats in a measure (top of the fraction), which duration gets the beat (bottom of the fraction), and the tempo (how long each beat lasts).

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