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OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

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Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#91

Post by captain_crabs »

swaggyBoatswain wrote: post #54

DoTA has come such a long way from being just a warcraft 3 mod. All those random pub matches I used to play with w33, analyzing all the patchnotes and .w3g replays before youtube was a thing, to shitty garena pubmatches, to a full fledge esports remake, to going to my first Dota TI2 international 2 years back, and now AI is being thrown in the mix. I wonder what the future of DoTA will look like now

Yeah. Dota's the one game I've consistently played my entire life. Seeing it bloom and blossom from just this thing I knew & enjoyed into the whole primetime, then merging into broader tech...this is awesome!

Crappy garena, banlists, vs 5 ai in wc3 when no internet... :')

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#92

Post by emilsedgh »

swaggyBoatswain wrote: post #54

DoTA has come such a long way from being just a warcraft 3 mod. All those random pub matches I used to play with w33, analyzing all the patchnotes and .w3g replays before youtube was a thing, to shitty garena pubmatches, to a full fledge esports remake, to going to my first Dota TI2 international 2 years back, and now AI is being thrown in the mix. I wonder what the future of DoTA will look like now

But the popularity is a bit declining, isn't it?

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#94

Post by dang »

ggregoire wrote: post #4

Wait… the big news here is steam.tv. I heard the rumors but didn't know it was up?! (it seems to work only for their own event at this time tho.)

A mod changed the URL from https://steam.tv/dota2/ after this comment was posted, presumably because the live stream was over (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17824373).

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#95

Post by glalonde »

adverbly wrote: post #70

Reaction time seems to be a lot more complicated than just 200ms flat. There were a lot of superhuman reactions that game which really made it difficult for humans to start a fight. At the same time though, increasing much more than 200ms might give a big advantage to humans in other situations. It will be interesting to see if they can find a better way to model it. All in all I am very impressed by the AI. So many…

The human would probably be able to blink/cancel if they were expecting it and therefore able to focus on a single thing prior to an event. The bot can focus on everything simultaneously and doesn't really need to expect anything. It gets a signal, it responds within 200ms, no problem. You could program that analytically.

So I would say the superhuman-ness isn't in the number of actions taken, or in the response delay, but in the massive attention bandwidth. I believe they've attempted to even the playing field in the first two, which are easily quantifiable, but I don't know about the latter.

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#96

Post by drchickensalad »

nindalf wrote: post #55
el_devo wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, as the sibling poster said, there is a 200ms reaction speed restriction on OpenAI. Also note that OpenAI is using the Dota 2 bot API (its input is not pixels, and its outputs are not mouse actions and keystrokes), so it has more precise information than the human team on things like unit coordinates and can target its actions more exactly.

This 200ms restriction seems really slow, but it isn’t. It feels extremely fast, to the point where some heroes and tactics used by humans are useless or impossible. For example, one of the humans played a hero called Axe. It was literally impossible to land one of his skills because it takes 400ms to use it. I’ve seen a lot of professional Dota but I’ve never seen Axe calls being dodged so perfectly and consistently…

The consistency is definitely a factor, but even in just the top 80th percentile it's quite common to happen.

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#98

Post by rajahafify »

noxvilleza wrote: post #52
hamhamed wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pain isn't the toughest of opponents at TI. Will they be playing vs a team that is currently still alive in the bracket? So far it seems Pain is kind of controlling the game at least much better vs the caster team (99th percentile)

They're still the ~19th best team in the world.

No. TI is not a meritocracy. Pain came from the weakest region in the world. Without the SA slot, they wouldn't even be in TI.

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#99

Post by infogulch »

glalonde wrote: post #95
adverbly wrote: post #70

Reaction time seems to be a lot more complicated than just 200ms flat. There were a lot of superhuman reactions that game which really made it difficult for humans to start a fight. At the same time though, increasing much more than 200ms might give a big advantage to humans in other situations. It will be interesting to see if they can find a better way to model it. All in all I am very impressed by the AI. So many…

The human would probably be able to blink/cancel if they were expecting it and therefore able to focus on a single thing prior to an event. The bot can focus on everything simultaneously and doesn't really need to expect anything. It gets a signal, it responds within 200ms, no problem. You could program that analytically. So I would say the superhuman-ness isn't in the number of actions taken, or in the response dela…

"attention bandwidth" is a great term that really solidifies my fuzzy thoughts on how to characterize the bots, thank you!

Re: OpenAI Five at Dota 2 – The International [video]

#100

Post by ehsankia »

glalonde wrote: post #95
adverbly wrote: post #70

Reaction time seems to be a lot more complicated than just 200ms flat. There were a lot of superhuman reactions that game which really made it difficult for humans to start a fight. At the same time though, increasing much more than 200ms might give a big advantage to humans in other situations. It will be interesting to see if they can find a better way to model it. All in all I am very impressed by the AI. So many…

The human would probably be able to blink/cancel if they were expecting it and therefore able to focus on a single thing prior to an event. The bot can focus on everything simultaneously and doesn't really need to expect anything. It gets a signal, it responds within 200ms, no problem. You could program that analytically. So I would say the superhuman-ness isn't in the number of actions taken, or in the response dela…

To be fair, that's a little like saying Deep Blue had an advantage because it could try out thousands of possible plays simultaneously. That's true, but what makes humans good at Chess for example is that we have a really good "intuition" at which moves are good, and therefore we can prune non-promising branches in the decision tree better.

Similarly here, the AI can definitely do a lot more things at once, but each individual thing they do isn't very smart. For example, they waste money on useless wards or waste time sitting in front of Roshan. We can of course keep pushing the goal post, but I think if the AI can win with the given constraints, it's still a huge accomplishment.

Even more importantly though, it would be interesting to see if the AI is able to come up with new strategies and techniques that weren't known before.

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