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The Workman Keyboard Layout Philosophy (2010)

workmanlayout.org

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Re: The Workman Keyboard Layout Philosophy (2010)

#91

Post by deno »

melling wrote: post #80
deno wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can put everything in that list into 3 categories: 1. Fixing the problem: posture & monitor/keyboard height 2. Masking the problem: anything with the word ergonomic 3. Avoiding the problem: typing less/taking frequent (flow-interrupting) breaks Of course most people with pain want quick solutions, so no. 2 is going to be over-represented. Fixing your posture actually takes work to stretch/compress different muscl…

There are some plenty of programmers who have dealt with problems for years: http://ergoemacs.org/emacs/emacs_hand_pain_celebrity.html I wouldn’t trivialize anything. Happens to designers too. This was on the front of HN a few years ago: http://www.looknohands.me

Acknowledging the fact that most people working with computers have horrible postures is not trivializing anything.

Re: The Workman Keyboard Layout Philosophy (2010)

#92

Post by jimmy1 »

> I didn’t like the way Dvorak was laid out especially for the weak fingers of the right hand.

I am not sure if I only know this from playing piano and guitar, but it is surprisingly easy to strengthen those fingers. The exercise is very simple and all it takes is a couple minutes a day, it can be done anywhere (even better if you have a piano or guitar!):

1. Lay your fingers on a table, and curl them like you were at a keyboard or holding a small ball in your hand.

2. Keeping all of your other fingers on the table, lift your weaker finger, typically the ring as high as you possibly can without causing the other fingers to rise.

3. Bring it down as hard as you comfortably can.

4. Repeat 1-3 until you can lift higher and bring it down harder without affecting the other fingers.

Re: The Workman Keyboard Layout Philosophy (2010)

#93

Post by tjoff »

whatshisface wrote: post #90
tjoff wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is why I believe that qwerty is the best layout. All applications have designed all shortcuts to be sensible on it. Any other layout is just going to be a disaster and negate any benefits and more during actual use . You can of course use whatever layout you like and then while ctrl/alt/meta is pressed it switches to qwerty, doesn't save vim users though (or other applications where shortcuts don't need to be pr…

The idea would be to optimize the keyboard around English (which you can't remap,) and then to optimize your editor keybindings around the keyboard (which are easy to remap.)

Many applications (vast majority?) don't support remapping keybindings and it is a ton of work.

Optimizing your layout for English is not necessarily ideal for anyone writing in more than one language.

edit: I guess the above can be manageable (with compromises), but in my opinion it does take away much of the appeal with a new layout.

Re: The Workman Keyboard Layout Philosophy (2010)

#94

Post by deno »

wruza wrote: post #81
deno wrote: post #61

Sit up straight (fix your posture) and stop gluing your wrists to the desk or wrist “support” and the layout doesn’t matter unless you’re going for typing records. There is no magical layout that can eliminate the tension you’re artificially creating by stretching your fingers into unnatural positions instead of just moving the entire hand. What healthy typing looks like (on a horrible keyboard no less): https://www.…

I can imagine typing a wordy contract with this body and hand position, but not programming. He doesn’t use ctrl/shift much, and when he does, it seems not like a quick thing. He also will bottom out as hell even on non-horrible keyboard. (Mac kbd is far from horrible when compared to other membranes, btw.) I’m not a homerow-guy even, but try to {foo:(x,y)=>(x[y]+1)} and I bet this method will feel the struggle.

I don't understand the problem...?

Here's a quick demo of me typing some special characters with my natural typing position: https://streamable.com/tavn6

For something like $ or # I’ll use my right pinky for shift and the left hand, which I can’t really demo with one hand holding camera. The right side is easily reachable if you don’t glue your wrist—try it.

EDIT: Here’a the full thing with spaces: https://streamable.com/h0bpr

Re: The Workman Keyboard Layout Philosophy (2010)

#95

Post by vemv »

tjoff wrote: post #82
deno wrote: post #61

Sit up straight (fix your posture) and stop gluing your wrists to the desk or wrist “support” and the layout doesn’t matter unless you’re going for typing records. There is no magical layout that can eliminate the tension you’re artificially creating by stretching your fingers into unnatural positions instead of just moving the entire hand. What healthy typing looks like (on a horrible keyboard no less): https://www.…

It is natural to statically lift your arms like that for hours upon hours? Where one places the support is important, but I've seen conflicting statements whether lifting your arms would be beneficial. I have not yet seen the piano video but a piano is much bigger than a keyboard and I see tons of reasons as to why whatever works for one doesn't necessarily have to work for the other.

Nature doesn't require us to lean on armrests, desks or such - in fact there are almost no flat (or cushioned) surfaces on nature.

Evolutionarily it would't make sense if the human body wasn't 'self-contained' - requiring no external tools to work comfortably.

Your normal posture is to have the arms relaxed, or with a moderate amount of tension by keeping them lifted a reasonable amount of time, and variating the posture as well.

A well-developed hunter/gatherer would definitely have arms strong enough to type this way without getting particularly tired.

So what we modern humans ought to do is to keep the arms strong (by exercising), and to not compensate tiredness with artificial mechanisms.

I'm aware that this argumentation is somewhat dubious (and probably I failed to express it properly), but as a simpler experience report, I've worked this way 4+ years without trouble. First days will suck though.

Re: The Workman Keyboard Layout Philosophy (2010)

#96

Post by ubercow13 »

I have been using this for ~4 years. So far I like it, it is extremely comfortable to type on and instantly felt better than eg. colemak to me, though I never learned to touch type as quickly on any other layout. However, I wish I had just stuck to qwerty in the end, as I use vim keybindings wherever possible and the extra steps needed to customise the keybinds in each application is a hassle, and sometimes not even possible.

Re: The Workman Keyboard Layout Philosophy (2010)

#97

Post by tjoff »

vemv wrote: post #95
tjoff wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is natural to statically lift your arms like that for hours upon hours? Where one places the support is important, but I've seen conflicting statements whether lifting your arms would be beneficial. I have not yet seen the piano video but a piano is much bigger than a keyboard and I see tons of reasons as to why whatever works for one doesn't necessarily have to work for the other.

Nature doesn't require us to lean on armrests, desks or such - in fact there are almost no flat (or cushioned) surfaces on nature. Evolutionarily it would't make sense if the human body wasn't 'self-contained' - requiring no external tools to work comfortably. Your normal posture is to have the arms relaxed, or with a moderate amount of tension by keeping them lifted a reasonable amount of time, and variating the pos…

I would need more convincing than that. Nature doesn't have keyboards.

Static postures are seen as something very bad in ergonomics, muscles are not adapted for that and wear is problematic.

I've used supports for 20+ years without trouble. First day didn't suck either.

Re: The Workman Keyboard Layout Philosophy (2010)

#98

Post by explorigin »

gregn610 wrote: post #32
reacweb wrote: post #16

He uses the wrong test. Testing on "The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes" is meaningless for developpers: tests should be performed using real usages like "source code of linux kernel" or "mailing list of linux kernel" to have a better balance between code and text.

Very much this. This is the results for my personal bread and butter, python and SQL. Workman tested very much mid-pack. http://patorjk.com/keyboard-layout-analyzer/#/load/FKcXzlQ2

Yes, but mid-pack among alternate layouts. Qwerty doesn't even show up. The difference between them is minimal compared with sticking with qwerty.

Other factors to consider would be time-to-learn, hot-key placement, device compatibility and general flexibility. I put my own Python code in your test and workman did much better. Be sure to use several samples when making a determination.

In most of my tests, Colemak was a consistent winner by a small margin.

Re: The Workman Keyboard Layout Philosophy (2010)

#99

Post by deno »

tjoff wrote: post #82
deno wrote: post #61

Sit up straight (fix your posture) and stop gluing your wrists to the desk or wrist “support” and the layout doesn’t matter unless you’re going for typing records. There is no magical layout that can eliminate the tension you’re artificially creating by stretching your fingers into unnatural positions instead of just moving the entire hand. What healthy typing looks like (on a horrible keyboard no less): https://www.…

It is natural to statically lift your arms like that for hours upon hours? Where one places the support is important, but I've seen conflicting statements whether lifting your arms would be beneficial. I have not yet seen the piano video but a piano is much bigger than a keyboard and I see tons of reasons as to why whatever works for one doesn't necessarily have to work for the other.

> It is natural to statically lift your arms like that for hours upon hours?

No, just rest your palms on desk or legs when not typing. The point is to just not glue them when you are actually typing.

Re: The Workman Keyboard Layout Philosophy (2010)

#100

Post by eru »

tjoff wrote: post #78
citation_please wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But this brings up that some Vim hotkeys are more positional than mnemonic (J-down, K-up), while others are more mnemonic than positional (I-insert, X-exterminate(?)). Food for thought.

This is why I believe that qwerty is the best layout. All applications have designed all shortcuts to be sensible on it. Any other layout is just going to be a disaster and negate any benefits and more during actual use . You can of course use whatever layout you like and then while ctrl/alt/meta is pressed it switches to qwerty, doesn't save vim users though (or other applications where shortcuts don't need to be pr…

I've been using dvorak for more than a decade now. Yes, shortcuts are sometimes a bit annoying, but qwerty is so bad, that dvorak is still worth it.
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