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The Four Thieves Vinegar Collective

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91–100 of 142 posts

Re: The Four Thieves Vinegar Collective

#91
post #20
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well if we could just rich people to find their projects. /s

Ok. Let's imagine a world where he achieves his dream. We've democratized access to molecular synthesis with no quality issues. Anyone, anywhere can safely and effectively produce any medicine of their choosing, without regard for IP laws. Now what? Well, on the one hand, everyone on earth will have cheap, timely access to every medicine that currently exists. That's pretty awesome. On the other hand, who's going to…

RoI may go beyond financial measures for some of us.

I'd invest even if the only yield is longer/better life rather than $.

More $ - not terribly important beyond a threshold.

Longer/better life - yeah, that's important no matter how much money I have.

Re: The Four Thieves Vinegar Collective

#92
post #75
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can "render" a movie onto my harddrive from bittorrent in minutes. I don't know why Pixar has to spend so much time on their rendering! /s

If stealing movies helped people survived, given financial difficulties, then they'll do it. Survival beats "no-steal" laws.

in the face of immorality, morality stand supreme

Re: The Four Thieves Vinegar Collective

#93
As a former pharmaceutical chemist I’m calling bullshit.

Could they have made a few grams of nalaxone? Sure it’s pretty simple. Did they make enough to make a difference? No. Did they make sufficiently pure drug so that people don’t get poisoned? Probably not.

And did they make the AIDS drug? He’ll no. That synthesis is way more complicated than their mini lab can handle.

It makes for good VICE articles, but these guys are amateurs who are likely going to get someone killed.

Re: The Four Thieves Vinegar Collective

#94
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice idea. Why don't single-payer healthcare systems (the ones who are already enlightened, compared to the backward USA, right?) fund that research today ? If pharma geniuses couldn't make a fortune in pharma, would they work for the government on the Federal wage scale, or would they go to coding bootcamp (which they could easily thrive at, based on the biochem->coding converts I know) and go work for Facebook?

> Nice idea. Why don't single-payer healthcare systems (the ones who are already enlightened, compared to the backward USA, right?) fund that research today? They (and even our multi-payer system) already do. See: Public universities, NIH grants, etc.

Those two sources pay for a fraction of what goes into R&D at private companies.

Re: The Four Thieves Vinegar Collective

#95

Didn't Shkreli make Daraprim available for free to anyone who couldn't afford it?

Such "patient assistance programs" are common, and they're designed to further maximize profits at the expense of heightened insurance premiums over time.

What? Giving away free drugs causes insurance premiums to rise? How does that work?

Re: The Four Thieves Vinegar Collective

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They also exist because it's INSANELY profitable to be able to hold someone hostage for their literal life. As long as the IP is tightly controlled and the ever-stricter regulations build your moat for you, you'll make insane money. Look, I agree this isn't likely to be the scalable and safe solution that solves the cost crisis. But maybe we DO need someone to throw pills out for free just to show the absurdity of ou…

What if he is wildly successful and brings down the profitability of future drug development by an order of 10x? And because future profits aren't as certain, investors decide to put their money elsewhere and those drugs aren't ever explored? I am not suggesting this is the truth, or even a prediction. But I reject the emotionally charged language that people use to say there are no downsides. There are always potent…

The cost of testing a drug for "human compatibility", e.g. the whole clinical trials series, is too high due to how many quality-adjusted life years are saved due to this. Actually, even if you just compare the money the medical system itself wastes on overtesting, instead of using it to help people with existing technology, you see that a lot of this clinical testing money is spend wrong. If we can fix this fearmongering with "bad" medicine, we can reduce the regulation for this and thus allow many more novel drugs to be developed or to spend much less on their development.

Re: The Four Thieves Vinegar Collective

#97
post #85
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Pursuing science is a human right,” Laufer said. “In fact, it’s the human right from which all other rights flow. You have to be able to do whatever you want to your body and to think the way you want.”

> You have to be able to do whatever you want to your body and to think the way you want. The problem with most libertarian ideas like this is externalities. If you take something made incorrectly and become incredibly sick, society has to either take care of you or let you die- and no one wants to let people just die. So instead, society foots the bill for taking care of you. I'm not saying these guys aren't fightin…

Ultimately, either way it will create a new competition which will push the hand of the legal market to adapt to being undercut. In that sense it's not simply just the individual benefiting at expense of the wider society but potentially the catalyst which benefits the whole market (even non-black market buyers).

There is no reason why Epipens cost $300 other than the fact the FDA has a huge backlog [1] and other regulatory constraints. There are plenty of companies chomping at the bit to deliver that medication for cheaper.

Like you said, this alternative is less than ideal, these hackers weren't driven to this just for fun - it was born out of what they saw as a lack of other options, a necessity (same with their 'customers' who were pushed to the shadier/riskier option). This necessity is generated when the primary market is not delivering value properly/efficiently, creating a demand for it.

The more free the legal market, the more the black market will be far less lucrative. The same applies to drugs and many other markets which artificial controls/limitations.

This all must be factored into the balances of costs measured against the externalities it imposes on society. It's riskier than pure top-down/government intervention but sometimes it's a necessary risk when that option continually fails to reform/change and nothing else pushes the hand of the gov/industry to adapt.

Sure you could blame the black market, but the simpler solution would be to fix the original problem which caused the black market to exist.

[1] http://slatestarcodex.com/2016/08/29/reverse-voxsplaining-dr...

Re: The Four Thieves Vinegar Collective

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I understand what harm was done here?

He`s literary throwing homemade pharmaceuticals like they are candy. These drugs have side effects. They probabally haven't been tested for impurities. If someone took them they could have gotten seriously hurt. I like their ideas though(especially the DIY epi pen).

You have to keep in mind that just because there are some impurities, it is automatically dangerous. Compare the risk of not having an epi pen available when needed to the cost of keeping one stocked if you are not particularily high-risk, and you see that it doesn't make sense for the unnecessarily expensive ones. If they were cheap enough I'd keep some stocked to have handy when handlign potentially allergenic substances, just in case I happen to actually be allergic. But this <5% chance of having an allergic reaction of significance, and then figuring that only a small part is life-threatening, as well as the cost of one's live, and setting this agains the cost of keeping stock (it goes bad), it doesn't work out....

Re: The Four Thieves Vinegar Collective

#100
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Such "patient assistance programs" are common, and they're designed to further maximize profits at the expense of heightened insurance premiums over time.

What? Giving away free drugs causes insurance premiums to rise? How does that work?

The money has to be made somewhere.
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