Live data from Hacker News

Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

techcrunch.com

91–100 of 125 posts

Re: Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

#91
post #7

So many in this case are missing the point. If Microsoft caught him violating their copyright, and it bothered Microsoft, Microsoft should have sued in civil court. That is the purpose of civil court- to penalize wrongdoing by companies. Happens all the time. But Microsoft was never going to recover anything in civil court. So Microsoft lied to the US government about the value of what was being "stolen", and got the…

Louis Rossman did an interview with Lundgren on his YouTube Channel. Lundgren is no hero. He was not just burning some recovery CDs. He was actively seeking to deceive, actively telling his customers (other PC recyclers) that he was selling them legitimate recovery CDs manufactured by Dell, Lenovo, etc. Microsoft did not go to the government. The government went to Microsoft. It called Microsoft people as expert witnesses. Microsoft did not claim the CDs Lundgren sold were worth $25. They said that they sell versions of Windows with licenses for refurbishers for $25, but don't sell license-free recovery CDs.

The standard used to determine damages for counterfeit goods (which is what we're dealing with, not copyright infringement or trademark violation but counterfeit goods, no different than if he setup a production like to produce Prada bags and told people they were Prada bags) is NOT exact equivalence. It is substantial similarity. And the court, not Microsoft, looked at Lundgrens claim that he spent tens of thousands of dollars producing worthless CDs that he then expected to make a profit selling and saw that it was a nonsensical lie. The only other number the court had was the $25 one from Microsoft. Read the appellate courts ruling. It's not a difficult read. It's very clear.

Re: Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He disputes the emails claiming they are made up and tampered with insinuating his partner in selling these CDs has implicated him to get a lesser sentence. Obviously someone in this whole mess is lying or grossly misinformed, the problem is figuring out who. He said he had IT-experts testify in court that the emails had been tampered with, I assume one could look into that in some kind of public record over the case…

Do you have a link where he alleges the tampering? I'd be interested to learn more. I should try to find the court documents, usually available through a PACER-type thing for a nonzero but modest charge.

It's quite a long video, I can not claim to have seen it all, but the allegations should come up within the first 36 minutes and after the initial introduction by the third party.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7hnVYMoctM

EDIT: The court documents were linked in another comment, I relink it: https://blogs.microsoft.com/uploads/prod/sites/5/2018/04/FIN...

Re: Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The $25 includes a new license. Microsoft claims that the original OEM license is invalidated by recycling and that they should be paid twice (and claim their $25 discount licenses are a benevolent gift).

Do you have a reference for this? Best I could find is: https://www.msregrefurb.com/RRPSite/Information/LicensingGui... I think it says the OEM license remains valid after recycling as long as the recovery media accompany the computer (or are obtained from the OEM), but doesn't otherwise? So by that argument, he really does need the new license? I'd read the contract if I knew which one applied (since that's what act…

It's not that weird, software uses physical totems for all sorts of policy decisions. Look at the weird complicated nature of discs in videogame consoles this decade, for instance, (and which PCs did for a couple decades before). The game software is often running entirely from a hard disk, but if you bought the game as a physical disc (Blu-Ray), the console still wants the disc in the drive for a proof of continued ownership. (All to appease the pawn shop habits of many videogame players.)

It's all just variations on Two-Factor Authentication. Proper two factor is using a hardware device you own to be a physical totem as a factor to access an account.

Here Microsoft is saying that a proper license of the software for a given machine is both the license code (something you know) and a physical disc (something you have) as a simple two-factor equation.

Microsoft giving the benefit of the doubt to the average user that perhaps they might lose a disc for boring reasons like "It's in a box somewhere in the attic, I just don't know which one" or "I tossed it in the garbage not realizing it was valuable" or "My dog thought it was a Frisbee" (and these days even and especially "I didn't realize I needed that partition when I repaved my idiot OEM's install"), offers the rough equivalent to the SMS two-factor password recovery on their website (by interacting directly with them, and presumably only them, to download an "emergency" copy). Just like SMS recovery, it's not a great 2FA replacement, and is likely to have false positives from bad actors, but it is better than nothing.

So it makes sense that Microsoft would have problems with disintermediating that exchange, because A) they can't track it, and B) as it scales, it increases the likelihood of bad actors abusing it. Even if this particular recycler wasn't collecting and reselling the proper copies of recovery discs alongside the counterfeits, the next one might.

Returning to the 2FA analogy, there are somewhat equivalents to the "Forgot Password" flow for a system to remember its old License Code, both in the system itself and on the recovery disc in some cases, not to mention that there is also the Microsoft licensing hotline where you can ask/beg/social engineer a human representative to restore your license.

So concerns that selling machines without the original recovery disc is possibly someone selling both the original recovery disc and the machine to different buyers to "split the licenses in half" is a quite valid concern, whether or not that was the actual intent here.

(...and the actual intent here is so entirely muddied by the trademark infringement and effort put into the counterfeiting, it's hard not to wonder if there was a fire beneath all the smoke.)

Re: Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

#94
post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Referring to Microsoft Windows as "free software" is just wrong. Microsoft Windows is not Free Software. Free has many meanings. Look up the dictionary [1]. In the context of the situation / article, it is free. As in $0. As in costs nothing. Context matters, and the FSF / open source context does not apply here. This ridiculous insistence on the "one true pure" meaning and rigid interpretation of words is a like c…

"Free software" has an established meaning within our field. Notice how I was complaining about the title, where naturally the context is very broad.

Free software has always had two meanings. "Free as in speech or free as in beer", is a phrase used commonly in software development for a reason

Re: Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

#95
post #68

This article is quite disingenuous. The lie is in the first sentence: "...15 months in prison for selling discs that let people reinstall Windows on licensed machines . (emphasis mine) The prosecution successfully argued the machines these discs were meant to be sold with did not have valid Windows licenses (and that these discs were part of an effort to avoid purchasing them). You will want to find another article o…

They only don't because Microsoft wanted to double-dip. They want one license fee when the computer is originally sold, and then a second ($25) every time it is resold. The problem with that is that Microsoft cannot have it both ways, either the license is tied to the physical hardware (in which case recyclers don't need to pay $25) or it isn't (in which case people should be able to resell them on eBay).

Microsoft guidelines appear to state that given the Ship of Theseus nature of machines there is a two-factor of sorts authentication for the license of that machine: the license code sticker, and the original recovery disc (as a harder to counterfeit physical token than the exact state of hardware of a machine; remember all the XP era relicensing woes when you swapped out a RAM chip?).

If you sell all three together on eBay, that's entirely fine, and it doesn't need a relicense fee. It's when you start to lose one of those three that Microsoft asks you pay a relicensing fee.

Re: Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

#96
post #86
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Microsoft Windows is not Free Software. Sorry, but allowing the Free Software movement to insist they are the sole proprietors of the definition of "free" is wrong. About as wrong as the people who are trying to co-opt the word "racism". If something can be had for $0, it is free. Even with a capital F. That there exists other definition of free does not prevent people from legitimately using this definition.

You go use the word "free" however you want. And if you refer to software that is for free as "free software", expect to be misundertood.

>And if you refer to software that is for free as "free software", expect to be misundertood.

1. For the majority of the population, I will not be misunderstood. Only confusing for a certain crowd (FSF advocates). But that's a hole they dug themselves into, so my sympathies are wanting.

2. Let's be frank: Your statement applies more to people who use it the way you prefer, as opposed to my usage. If it weren't the case, then I wouldn't encounter so many people all over the Internet going out of their way to point out pseudo-clarifications.

Don't get me wrong - I'm an advocate of what you call free software, and am even a fan of the GPL. That doesn't mean I'll buy everything they push.

Re: Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

#97
post #7

So many in this case are missing the point. If Microsoft caught him violating their copyright, and it bothered Microsoft, Microsoft should have sued in civil court. That is the purpose of civil court- to penalize wrongdoing by companies. Happens all the time. But Microsoft was never going to recover anything in civil court. So Microsoft lied to the US government about the value of what was being "stolen", and got the…

Louis Rossman did an interview with Lundgren on his YouTube Channel. Lundgren is no hero. He was not just burning some recovery CDs. He was actively seeking to deceive, actively telling his customers (other PC recyclers) that he was selling them legitimate recovery CDs manufactured by Dell, Lenovo, etc. Microsoft did not go to the government. The government went to Microsoft. It called Microsoft people as expert witn…

+1 for mentioning the interview, but a link would've been helpful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7hnVYMoctM

Microsoft did claim they were worth $20, according to Gov. Exhibit 17. Most of your argument is thus false.

District and appellate judges don't always make the right decisions, but that's what rehearings and the Supreme Court are for.

Re: Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The $25 includes a new license. Microsoft claims that the original OEM license is invalidated by recycling and that they should be paid twice (and claim their $25 discount licenses are a benevolent gift).

Do you have a reference for this? Best I could find is: https://www.msregrefurb.com/RRPSite/Information/LicensingGui... I think it says the OEM license remains valid after recycling as long as the recovery media accompany the computer (or are obtained from the OEM), but doesn't otherwise? So by that argument, he really does need the new license? I'd read the contract if I knew which one applied (since that's what act…

Recovery Media has not been shipped with new systems in almost a decade now. At best there is a Recovery partition that consumer can use to create Recovery Disk themselves before the system fails. Obtaining Recovery Media from places like Dell and Lenovo is a Pain in the ass unless you are the original purchaser of the system of an official retailer and you only want 1 Copy of the Media.

The problem is most systems of value sent to a recylers are from off lease buys and corporate refreshes, Most IT shops I know of do not bother getting, storing or collecting Restore disks because we are VL (Volume Licensed) and do not use the OEM image at all even though we pay for it. The first thing that is done on a corp device of any company that has more than 10 or 15 systems is to wipe the entire factory disk and install our own customize version of windows. We also tend to toss any Documentation, CD's and other items that were to come with the system in the trash

So Recylers get thousands of systems annually that are perfectly serviceable, fully licensed with windows but they can not use that license because there is no restore CD and they have no way to obtain one. Thus MS does them a "favor" buy selling them a new license for $25 instead of just providing a way for them to restore the system

Re: Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

#99
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ahh yes MS Defending themselves with "We love Recyclers along as they give us $25 for every computer they recycle... if not we will put you in prison" Not much of a defense if you ask me

The substance of the defense is mostly that his own correspondence shows it was a for-profit enterprise intended to deceive.

There would not be a need for that type of for profit enterprise if Microsoft was a Responsible Corporation and provided tools for Recylers to restore their fully licensed Computers legally under the terms of the license they (Microsoft) sold with the equipment

But Microsoft wants to profit an additional $25 above and beyond their original license costs for that same system

Re: Microsoft helped imprison a man for ‘counterfeiting’ software it gives away free

#100
post #87
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn’t the appropriate comparison be collecting the free cheese test pieces in a bag and selling them outside at a cheese booth?

Not even that. The appropriate comparison would be copying the marketing pamphlet verbatim and bringing your own cheese to the booth. Microsoft is arguing that the cheese could have been poisoned. And that people were buying less cheese because of his efforts.

The government, whose prosecutors brought this case - aren't arguing that the cheese "could have been poisoned" except in the sense that we have no idea what counterfeiters might or might not get wrong in the process of knocking off a product and we _don't want to find out_ which is why counterfeiting is a criminal offence.

Their argument is that Lundgren's product, a CD that says it's a Windows restore CD from Dell, but is actually a counterfeit produced by Lundgren in China, is (duh) a counterfeit of the Windows restore CD, which sure enough Microsoft sells for (depending on which version exactly) $25.

If you sell your cheese, saying this is a Buxton Blue, (a protected designation) but it isn't, that's counterfeiting. You have counterfeit cheese. Saying "Oh, well I saw them giving cheese away in a supermarket once, so it's free, so there shouldn't be a penalty" doesn't wash. Are you giving it away as a promotion in a supermarket? No. You're selling it, saying it's Buxton Blue. So the right question is, "How much does Buxton Blue sell for?" and the equivalent here is exactly the question Microsoft was asked, "How much do you charge for these CDs?" to which the answer is $25.

Lundgren is a counterfeiter. It's sad how many people are buying what is literally a sob story from a convicted criminal as though it's a neutral third party discussing the case.

Post reply on HN