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Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

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Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#91

Post by diminoten »

time0ut wrote: post #75
mightybyte wrote: post #59

The "No One Believes Anyone Can Actually Code" point is right on the money by my anecdotal experience. Just a few weeks ago I was asked to implement FizzBuzz in an interview for the first time in my 15 years of engineering! This was despite having a large amount of verifiable open source Haskell projects.

I usually ask a trivial problem like this. Not really to see if they can code (I have had one or two people fail here though), but more to serve as a conversation topic. Why did you do this? How would you do that? etc...

But I don't want to talk about FizzBuzz! It's boring! There's a "right" answer, and not a lot/any real choice or nuance.

Ask me about your current problems, problems the person filling the position would need to have opinions about. If nothing else, maybe I could crack a tough issue for you that would have material value.

I've given FizzBuzz, and I've done FizzBuzz. It's hard to do it/get it and not feel like there's some degree of insult involved.

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#92

Post by s2g »

octorian wrote: post #58
geebee wrote: post #31

Thank you for writing this post. It was informative. A few comments from a fellow software developer who is approaching 50... I don't think the coding test isn't there because people think you're lying, it's there because we have no industry wide, respected entrance exam. Actuarial interviews don't (to my knowledge) contain a whiteboard vector calculus exam, but this isn't because people just sort of believe actuarie…

> ...who nodded gravely as the CEO talked about the desperate shortage of software developers. This comment is exactly why reading about "interview gymnastics" like this really pisses me off. Its also why I wonder how many big tech companies are somehow able to hire so many people... With processes like these, you'd think that they either have a "secret backdoor" or never managed to actually hire more than a dozen or…

Volume. Huge volume.

Google has a completely broken interview process, to the point where they pretty much brag about how ridiculous their false negative rate is, but they make up for it on volume. When people will throw themselves at you two or three times in hope of getting that lucky set of algorithm wankery questions that they can answer, then you will keep interviewing like that.

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#93

Post by cema »

cableshaft wrote: post #90
ChuckMcM wrote: post #33

I find the coding thing interesting as well, in part because there is coding and there is coding. I suspect it is the difference between "coding ability" and "coding fluency." In the former a candidate can apply known patterns of a give language to a problem and with just a few searches on StackOverflow get it working. A person who has code fluency can create the algorithm in the language of your choice, pretty much…

> A person who has code fluency can create the algorithm in the language of your choice, pretty much on the spot. I've professionally used each for a year or more C#, Python, Javascript, Objective-C, Java, PHP, Visual Basic, and ActionScript over the years. But if you asked me to write a function in anything but the first three languages, I will almost undoubtedly stumble a bit in producing them (hell, I still have t…

I think what you described here is all too frequent and, frankly, infuriating. Obviously not the right way to hire people, but more profoundly, I think it reflects poorly on the collegiate nature of our profession.

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#95

Post by badminton1 »

Competitive programming is interesting, but it is very different from what you get to do at work.

"Cracking the coding interview" and similar books are really about competitive programming, which is what you get to do at contests like ICPC and such.

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#96

Post by haskellandchill »

calcifer wrote: post #78
haskellandchill wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like this is a myth, what do you estimate the figure is? I think under 10%, maybe under 5%. I have significant experience interviewing senior, junior, and mid-range candidates. 99% of my candidates can code, as in iterate over collections, write case statements, and call functions. I've only had one junior candidate who couldn't code at all. Sloppiness is rampant, but sloppy code that gets things done is what…

> 99% of my candidates can code, as in iterate over collections, write case statements, and call functions. Honestly, that's way too trivial to call "can code". I usually ask something less trivial, yet still extremely easy like "a function to check if a string is a palindrome" (I explain what a palindrome is) or "check if a substring exists in a given string". You wouldn't believe how many people "with 10 years expe…

The function to check palindrome will be composed of those building blocks, that's my meaning. Use those basic skills and composing them to solve a problem, such as palindrome, that's coding in the small to me.

Coding in the large is project management and could be tested by a take home, but I'd rather tease it out by asking in person questions about organization, prioritization, and technology choice.

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#97

Post by stevenwoo »

ryandrake wrote: post #82
crdoconnor wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's weird, I've heard plenty of stories about this kind of thing but when I sat on the hiring side and interviewed for intermediate roles (couldn't even afford senior) I didn't come across anybody who was stumped and simply couldn't code. There were people who were bad at (possibly some because they were under pressure), it but nobody who couldn't do it at all. I wasn't giving out a trivial question either.

It's such a weird hiring market. 1. There are a lot of imposters out there applying for programming jobs who can't program, and 2. There are a lot of very talented programmers out there who are being rejected by overly picky companies. Both can be true, and I'd argue that both are true. I don't know what the solution is. Current interviewing methods don't seem to be solving the problem. I'd suggest a widely-accepted…

One problem with viewing the certification thing as a solution is people can then question - how do you know if you got the person who graduated at the top of their class versus someone who barely graduated? How are lawyers/doctors vetted beyond their certifications?

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#98

Post by sixstringtheory »

I’d love to go into a technical interview where the homework beforehand is: “pick any of our blog posts and study it for discussion” and then you talk about it during the interview.

You can drill down as much as you want on any dimension of whatever topic you choose. I think the choice of topic and how well the interviewee can discuss it would both be good, and distinguishable, signals.

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#99

Post by larrik »

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #49
larrik wrote: post #30

I've been involved in hiring senior engineers for a while now, and here's a few counterpoints: 1) Ruby is hard to get a job in, so you are off to a rough start. 2) A lot of people with lots of experience actually can't code for crap. Do you know how many python developers I see that don't know the difference between a tuple and list? Like, how could you be a real dev if you never even wondered why sometimes you use […

I think the main point from a candidate perspective is that long, unusual or difficult interview processes are fine as long as we have already decided we really want to work for you (that is you are Trello or SpaceX or some amazing startup we love) otherwise, just as you are faced with picking a rose from a faceless mass of candidates so are we faced with picking a decent place to work from a faceless mass of mission…

We actually only do 2 interviews total, and for some roles a Hackerrank quiz.

The only times we use coding tests, we use Hackerrank to administer them. That way you have a distinct time limit (we give an hour, which is honestly way too long) so you don't spend all weekend one something that doesn't matter.

I definitely agree about the difficulty of picking a place to work. We reserve half of our final interview (and part of our initial interview) to be a Q&A for the candidate to interview us.

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#100

Post by diminoten »

tboyd47 wrote: post #47
Ocerge wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I found my current gig by using a recruiter I was referred to by a respected coworker, and it's by far the best job I've ever had (out of 5 or so). Super small sample size I know, but if you can find a recruiter that you can trust/isn't just pimping you out for a payday and nothing else, you can skip a ton of bullshit.

There's a huge variation in recruiter quality and it's pretty easy to tell the good ones from the bad. Just spend a couple of weeks taking calls and emails and following leads and you learn quick.

Yeah, I kind of liked having an advocate on my behalf. The guy who found me my current job was kind to me, didn't lie to companies about my experience, and kept in touch with the companies he sent me to, so I wouldn't have to.

He even gave me interview tips/advice on a per-company basis and helped me rewrite my resumé for each company he wanted me to interview with. Honestly, it was fantastic.

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