Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 172 posts

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#91

Post by captn3m0 »

shripadk wrote: post #23
haltingproblem wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The core issue being that for the poorest of the poor, privacy is secondary to survival. Privacy is probably not on their radar. However, Aadhaar is an authentication system not a tracking system. So privacy is not even relevant here but please correct me if I am mistaken.

Yes you are right in that Aadhaar is currently an authentication system and not a tracking system. But there are definitely instances where Aadhaar data has leaked (not the biometrics, but identity information like Name, Address and Phone numbers) which rightly calls into question privacy related issues.

The issue with biometric leaks is that it could come from anywhere, like this leak from the PDS system (ironically) in Gujarat[0]. Using biometrics for authentication is like forcing everyone to use the same password everywhere.

Aadhaar isn't the only biometric database in the country.

[0]: https://www.medianama.com/2018/02/223-gujarat-bleeds-biometr...

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#92

Post by captn3m0 »

shripadk wrote: post #81
captn3m0 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a security researcher in india, Aadhaar is riddled with Security holes that are glaring. There is clear way to report these issues and nothing gets fixed. I've had a possible-RCE vulnerability reported to UIDAI since February-2017 and there has been no action. The CERT-IN (Indian equivalent of CERT-US) has been aware of the issue, but there is no fix in sight. The easiest to do exploits (fingerprint cloning) are a…

Now that is news to me. I know UIDAI has handled the recent data leak from one of its partners horribly (even lodging an FIR against a news reporter). However, does the vulnerability you mention provide access to biometric data? For me personally, that is more of a concern than the metadata (name, address etc).

It is on a UIDAI-hosted system that has access to the CIDR, so it is possible.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#93

Post by captn3m0 »

shripadk wrote: post #74
captn3m0 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've filed my tax returns with just my PAN card and without using a DSC. This might be different for a registered organization where CAs must handle DSCs I think, but you could file your Individual taxes without printing/using a DSC/Aadhaar by just creating a new account linked to your PAN. The fact that they used OTP (and tout it as a security feature) is so disheartening. I am not the SIM card in my phone. Switchin…

I should have been more clear. I'm talking about after filing of returns. You have to verify it. It's either sending the signed acknowledgement to CPC or everify it digitally. Have you sent the signed acknowledgement to CPC? It's mandatory to send acknowledgement to CPC if you haven't digitally signed it using DSC or Aadhaar. Please check with your CA as the rules are same for personal and corporate income tax. EDIT:…

Ahh, thanks for the clarification. My bank supported e-Verify (EVC on the link you gave) via netbanking so it worked out.

Apparently, there are other EVC methods as well (ATM/mutual fund)

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#94

Post by Zak »

captn3m0 wrote: post #88
Zak wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What justification is given for this?

As per lawyers, the justification for Aadhaar-linkage is very slim[0], but the government is pushing telcos to link so it is happening. The events: 1. Supreme Court asks DoT in a regular about the status of KYC for telcos and asks for all SIMs to be compliant within a year 2. DoT (department of telco) rewords the above a "direction" (it was not binding till then) of the SC and makes Aadhaar-KYC mandatory (when the or…

It's more the original KYC law I was asking about. I find the attempt to deprive people of anonymous communication problematic and I'm curious as to the arguments that have been used successfully to do it so I can better argue against them.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#95

Post by kelnos »

> Technology has given governments around the world new tools to monitor their citizens.

This is the fundamental thing that really gets to me. Governments do not need to monitor their citizens! In fact that very concept is anathema to a free society.

I really wish people would get this and stop trotting out the usual "oh but terrorists!" type arguments. Pervasive monitoring destroys your way of life faster than any terrorist (or other justification du jour) could.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#96

Post by sumedh »

Alterlife wrote: post #52
firasd wrote: post #2

As a tech professional, it's extra disturbing the way the government pushes these harebrained schemes by marketing them as 'Digital India', 'India Stack', etc. thus getting visiting dignitaries from other countries to lap it up. We really need to be careful that we don't whitewash autocratic bureaucracy by branding it digital innovation. Note the spin from Aadhaar proponents in this NYT article--that it's the equival…

I'm from India too. While I don't support the Aadhaar program in it's present form, just so that we understand the arguments from the other side: India has a lot of problems but most of them stem from two causes: 1. Corruption 2. Inequality In positions of power, corruption is universal. I have yet to meet a person in Bangalore who has been able to purchase property without paying a bribe. Too many of our government…

> 1. Corruption 2. Inequality

How about actually catching bringing back people who have fled the country like Nirav Modi and Mallya or how about making sure a celebrity like Salman Khan goes to jail.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#97

Post by justinmk »

haltingproblem wrote: post #5

Lets step back and pose a meta question - how does a state go about providing services to its citizen if the state cannot identify citizens as its own and as unique entities. Both being necessary conditions. A well functioning state needs to be a strong (sorry libertarians) and benign (cf. Somalia and North Korea) to take care of its citizens. You can take birth, live and die in a weak state without the State ever kn…

> how does a state go about providing services to its citizen if the state cannot identify citizens as its own and as unique entities.

That's why it is risky to insist that the State should "provide benefits". The more benefits from the State, the more one needs to consult the State for daily life.

This stuff isn't surprising, it's a natural extension of entitlements, it happens every time. If the government provides healthcare, it won't be long before your life choices become the government's business.

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#98

Post by shripadk »

captn3m0 wrote: post #91
shripadk wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes you are right in that Aadhaar is currently an authentication system and not a tracking system. But there are definitely instances where Aadhaar data has leaked (not the biometrics, but identity information like Name, Address and Phone numbers) which rightly calls into question privacy related issues.

The issue with biometric leaks is that it could come from anywhere, like this leak from the PDS system (ironically) in Gujarat[0]. Using biometrics for authentication is like forcing everyone to use the same password everywhere. Aadhaar isn't the only biometric database in the country. [0]: https://www.medianama.com/2018/02/223-gujarat-bleeds-biometr...

Damn that's scary to think that the government was so callous with biometric data. Like you mentioned in one of your other comments to someone else in the thread, it's wise to couple biometric scans with a passkey or even yubikey as Aadhaar number by itself is no longer a good first factor (especially with compromise of biometric data). I don't see how it's possible for the government to rollback collected biometric data so it makes more sense now to use multifactor authentication. Even though UIDAI's biometrics isn't directly compromised the fact that the local government was also collecting biometrics and that leaked makes it even worse. Now those same biometrics can be used to authenticate Aadhaar transactions. I see how this can be a major issue. This information was an eye opener for me.

I learnt a lot from our discussions today. Thank you!

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#99

Post by fma »

saagarjha wrote: post #62
Alterlife wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm from India too. While I don't support the Aadhaar program in it's present form, just so that we understand the arguments from the other side: India has a lot of problems but most of them stem from two causes: 1. Corruption 2. Inequality In positions of power, corruption is universal. I have yet to meet a person in Bangalore who has been able to purchase property without paying a bribe. Too many of our government…

I'm not sure I quite understand how this is going to fight corruption. How are you going to track money that's being moved illegally? Presumably, nobody is going to be doing this under their Aadhaar card; it's all going to be in cash. Plus, how would you even access Aadhaar card information to audit this? Are you going to call up the government and ask for them to check Modi's card to make sure he hasn't been stealin…

Can't be all cash...so that helps.

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/09/business/india-bans-large...

Re: ‘Big Brother’ in India Requires Fingerprint Scans for Food, Phones and Finances

#100

Post by bigphishy »

captn3m0 wrote: post #90
bigphishy wrote: post #55

Given the title and article is sensationalized, does anyone else see that the greater reliance organizations and govnts put on mass-production of homogeneous survellience technology, the easier it will be to abuse, and the harder it will be to be detected. A double-edge sword it is.

It is worse in India because we have a large amount of surveillance abuse (even before the internet) and very little litigation/laws to make up for it. And now we have https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DRDO_NETRA (India's version of PRISM)

Someting tells me I have it in good faith the population of Indians will improve things drastically and will come out on top when all is said and done. Any way, I'm shocked Indian do not use their own version of f*book. India, you guys have got to get on that!
Post reply on HN