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Feds: There are hostile stingrays in DC, but we don’t know how to find them

arstechnica.com

91–100 of 101 posts

Re: Feds: There are hostile stingrays in DC, but we don’t know how to find them

#91

I work in wireless telecom: Really doubtful "we don't know how to find them". The FCC's enforcement bureau has a set of vans equipped to find unauthorized transmitters. IMSI catchers must transmit and remain on the air. It would be very risky to operate, even briefly, a portable imsi catcher in a briefcase and move it around WA DC, nevermind one that remained in fixed locations for hours. The only other explanation I…

>It would be very risky to operate, even briefly, a portable imsi catcher in a briefcase and move it around WA DC, nevermind one that remained in fixed locations for hours.

I'd assume if it was run from an embassy it's not risky at all actually - they can just tell the FCC to pound sand

Re: Feds: There are hostile stingrays in DC, but we don’t know how to find them

#92

I work in wireless telecom: Really doubtful "we don't know how to find them". The FCC's enforcement bureau has a set of vans equipped to find unauthorized transmitters. IMSI catchers must transmit and remain on the air. It would be very risky to operate, even briefly, a portable imsi catcher in a briefcase and move it around WA DC, nevermind one that remained in fixed locations for hours. The only other explanation I…

This doesn't sound like a technical problem. More like a government is being defunded, half the vans need repair, lack of senior management, no direction, other priorities, shortage of techs, hiring freeze, the remaining people only work from 9-5 and we don't pay overtime, type of problem.

Re: Feds: There are hostile stingrays in DC, but we don’t know how to find them

#93
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not a wireless expert, but then wouldn't it also be theoretically possible to have a network of direction finders? Isn't direction finding also a repeatable set of steps that can benefit from automation?

Yes, though DF can be much more efficient with directional (yagi, parabolic, horn) antennas. If fully automated by network the antennas connected to the spectrum analyzers need to be on two axis motorized platforms.

Phased arrays of antennas can compute the incoming direction of a signal entirely through signal processing and do not require a motorized platform.

Re: Feds: There are hostile stingrays in DC, but we don’t know how to find them

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there is a perfect storm of savant security nerds with piss-pour communications skills and telcos over-indexing on mba/finance leadership. The security nerds make blustery comments that “anyone with motivation and a couple g’s worth of gear can target ANYONE.” There are a bunch or problems with this argument. Gnuradio is not easy. You need to be in radio proximity to your target. Targeting someone requires so…

Naive question: how does net neutrality entrench companies? To me it seems the opposite, the more you can pay the better service your company can offer which directly benefits larger entrenched companies, no?

Imagine deciding to run a local ISP for 300 homes in your neighborhood. You don't know if all 300 will sign up for service. You don't know how long it will take to get to 300.

Do you pay for peering agreements that will meet the demands of 300 homes for the two years it will take to get there, or do you try to build up gradually? Will you be in a situation where you can't meet your existing customers' demand? Who will have leverage in that next peering agreement? It's clearly the entrenched backhaul provider.

If you have some ability to steer & prioritize traffic, you will have some wiggle room when it comes time to negotiate your next agreement. With net neutrality concepts- you lose that tool. You're totally dependent on the accuracy of your traffic predictions & the peering partner has a significant negotiating advantage.

You're going to take on the risk of digging trenches & negotiating peering agreements for underserved, rural or suburban locations. You're going to need a mass of homes to agree to the trenching & installation. You're going to have to negotiate labor for digging these trenches & laying cable in a way that will resist water damage & other threats.

All of this sucks and is hard.

>>the more you can pay the better service your company can offer which directly benefits larger entrenched companies, no?

I don't believe that anyone really wants to rate websites differently than they already are (via peering arrangements- which are how the Internet works, folks). But the argument that most people want to make is that ISPs will block access to example.com. The best example of access to a website being cut off I can point to is google's decision to block Amazon devices from accessing youtube.com.

If no ISP is doing this kind of blocking, then what's the point of exposing ISPs to risk of unfounded claims from random customers that you are violating net neutrality principals? Do you now need to absorb the cost of Audits to prove you're not? Digging trenches is hard, expensive & risky. What happens when you pile on more regulations?

Who is excited to get into this business? The established providers already have legal teams & are prepared to deal with legislators. Startup ISPs are annoying bugs that can easily be crushed with regulatory pressure. Add "ability to absorb regulatory & legal tangles" to your list of runway calculations.

All I see are increasingly challenging hurdles for startup ISPs that need pricing flexibility to manage the early, high risk tasks of starting an ISP.

Re: Feds: There are hostile stingrays in DC, but we don’t know how to find them

#95
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, though DF can be much more efficient with directional (yagi, parabolic, horn) antennas. If fully automated by network the antennas connected to the spectrum analyzers need to be on two axis motorized platforms.

Phased arrays of antennas can compute the incoming direction of a signal entirely through signal processing and do not require a motorized platform.

Can LTE carrier networks not act as an enormous observation system for unauthorized IMEI catchers?

Re: Feds: There are hostile stingrays in DC, but we don’t know how to find them

#96
post #28

Layman question: one can limit their exposure with encrypted VoIP communications (e.g. FaceTime) and chats (iMessage, Signal), correct? That being said, the intercepter would still know: - phone being connected (IMEI) - location of the phone - which servers were requested, but not the encrypted content (yet) - how much data was transmitted, "call time" So if two phones were talking with each other over FaceTime conne…

Re: your last sentence, a stingray rarely if ever offers actual network connectivity, either ss7 or data. Its purpose is just to catch the unique ID numbers from the phone. Whatever you have set into your phone for LTE APN data settings isn't going to work with a random imsi catcher. Such a thing won't have an uplink anyways outside of its command/control functions.

Thanks! Didn't know that about stingrays.

Re: Feds: There are hostile stingrays in DC, but we don’t know how to find them

#97

I work in wireless telecom: Really doubtful "we don't know how to find them". The FCC's enforcement bureau has a set of vans equipped to find unauthorized transmitters. IMSI catchers must transmit and remain on the air. It would be very risky to operate, even briefly, a portable imsi catcher in a briefcase and move it around WA DC, nevermind one that remained in fixed locations for hours. The only other explanation I…

How do I get into TSCM from convential appsec work? Is it EE guys and gals and smizmars?

Re: Feds: There are hostile stingrays in DC, but we don’t know how to find them

#99
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, though DF can be much more efficient with directional (yagi, parabolic, horn) antennas. If fully automated by network the antennas connected to the spectrum analyzers need to be on two axis motorized platforms.

Phased arrays of antennas can compute the incoming direction of a signal entirely through signal processing and do not require a motorized platform.

purely Rx phased arrays, unless very large, do not have nearly the gain (in dBi) of a good parabolic or horn. and not nearly as much directional discrimination as a good sized (90cm) parabolic.

in a phased array that is also a Tx this can be partially compensated for with higher dBm output power from the radio itself, but that's not the usage scenario we're talking about here.

Re: Feds: There are hostile stingrays in DC, but we don’t know how to find them

#100
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not the algo. The keys are the problem

Actually with 2G (especially A5/0, /1, /2), it's very much the algorithm that's the problem. A5/2 which is the precursor to the encryption used for 3G and LTE is a lot better but there's still issues that are only just coming to light.

I'm referring to modern networks. 2G is deprecated and going bye bye very soon.

For 3G/4G/LTE, the issue is the home cell sites host the keys and people exploited those devices to create the DIY stingrays.

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