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New Giant Viruses Further Blur the Definition of Life

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Re: New Giant Viruses Further Blur the Definition of Life

#91
post #88
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"Trying to define "life" is one of the central questions of the philosophy of biology." If this is true then "philosophy of biology" is a likely a total waste of time. It is obvious that life vs non-life is an artificial categorization that humans use because it is useful to them.

Maybe a better way to phrase the question then would be “What is the most useful categorization of life and non-life?”

Sure, then it will depend on what you want to use it for. Different definitions may be best for different projects.

Re: New Giant Viruses Further Blur the Definition of Life

#92

What if we could use the notion of entropy in a definition of life? Living things use energy to prevent entropy (decay?) while they are alive. On the other hand, natural, non-living processes do no such thing, and increase entropy as governed by the law of thermodynamics. We could also use criteria such as growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction. However, crystalline structures also grow and chemical processes…

You can't beat entropy, or prevent it. All you can do is change its distribution.

So, one way to look at living things is that each one is a local depression in entropy. But because you can't make something from nothing, each living thing has to broadly increase entropy in their environment, in order to decrease it locally.

Thus if we envision entropy as a surface, a living thing is not a depression from a flat plane, but rather more like a hill with a steep depression in the middle.

But again, since you can't have something from nothing, life can't arise from an environment of maximum entropy. In order for life to come into being, local entropy must be low enough for a hill to develop. This is where the entropic definition gets into trouble, because the local low-entropy environment around here is provided by the sun. And if you define life as any local depression of entropy, then it raises the question of whether the sun is alive.

Maybe it's better to think of life as a system, not an attribute. To use an analogy, you wouldn't look at a single wave in a rapid in isolation, and wonder what it is. Without the broader context of the river, you'll never understand how the wave came to be there. If every living thing is a like a ripple in the local entropic surface, we can point to individuals, but could only really understand them if we consider the whole picture of the solar system.

Re: New Giant Viruses Further Blur the Definition of Life

#93
post #77

Trying to define "life" is one of the central questions of the philosophy of biology. And the positions one takes in the philosophy of biology are inevitably going to be influenced by one's metaphysical positions regarding the problem of universals. A nominalist, a Aristotelian realist, a Platonist (etc.), are all going to approach the question "what is life?" differently. Sometimes when people discuss this topic, th…

>"Trying to define "life" is one of the central questions of the philosophy of biology." If this is true then "philosophy of biology" is a likely a total waste of time. It is obvious that life vs non-life is an artificial categorization that humans use because it is useful to them.

Your response presumes a particular philosophical position. When you call life "an artificial categorization that humans use because it is useful to them", you are espousing the nominalist solution to the problem of the universals, and applying that to biology. Even while attacking the philosophy of biology you are actually engaging in it.

Nominalism may be "obvious" to you, but it isn't obvious to everyone. Just because someone thinks something is "obvious" it does not automatically follow that it is true. Have you given serious thought to nominalism's alternatives, such as moderate realism (Aristotelian, Thomistic or Scotistic); or Platonism?

Re: New Giant Viruses Further Blur the Definition of Life

#95
post #81
post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To continue the pedantry - what makes society not one thing, but a human one thing? That seems like a matter of perspective.

I was going to joke it's about medium sized things but size is not a reasonable distinction (neither absolute size nor number of "parts") and you quickly run into the problem how organisations (i.e. groups of humans acting together) or machines (e.g. a car) are fundamentally different. I guess the definition really is pretty fuzzy and arbitrary. It's "obvious" why a bunny is biology and a car or company is not, but i…

> We like to justify these laws with biological categories but what do we do when faced with situations where the categories break down?

Change them to suit the world as we understand it.

The reality is that classifications as strict rules are a fantasy we choose to believe in, but at the end of the day, classifications are descriptions, and so we have to mutate them to help us describe things as best we can.

The reality is we work to the level of detail and accuracy we need. Rigidity in labels and classification is probably a sign of a lack of understanding, because almost everything ends up being broken down more at some point, and exceptions are found that break the rules.

Re: New Giant Viruses Further Blur the Definition of Life

#96
post #30
post #22

I consider legal entities such as corporations to be living organisms. So I don't agree that life is limited to organisms with a visible (biological) body.

While true in principle, natural organisms tend to be vastly more complex than even the largest corps, and complexity leads to emergent behaviour that you wouldn't see in a hierarchical human organisation.

How about a culture?

Re: New Giant Viruses Further Blur the Definition of Life

#97
post #64

I bet every biology student has struggled with the introductory "what is life" chapter, full of conflicting definitions. It is so difficult to define life because there is nothing to be defined. There are complex stuff and simple stuff. We tend to call things that exhibit a certain degree of complexity "alive", but that's just a word. Can't remember who wrote the perfect definition of Biology: "The study of complex t…

> Can't remember who wrote the perfect definition of Biology: "The study of complex things". There's a great deal of wisdom in that. Human society is complex, but it would not normally be considered biology.

>Human society is complex, but it would not normally be considered biology.

Reality is organized in levels of complexity. Society is composed of living creatures, so at least you should say it is life-based. The big debate is how and where you draw the line between the non-living and the living.

Re: New Giant Viruses Further Blur the Definition of Life

#98
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can't remember who wrote the perfect definition of Biology: "The study of complex things". There's a great deal of wisdom in that. Human society is complex, but it would not normally be considered biology.

Formal fallacy. That biology can be called 'the study of complex things' does not imply that all complex things fall under biology. It's silly to even have to point this out.

No, it's not a formal fallacy. "Apples are red, therefore everything red is an apple" would be. But the word "is" here being used to indicate definition, not characteristic.

Re: New Giant Viruses Further Blur the Definition of Life

#99

What if we could use the notion of entropy in a definition of life? Living things use energy to prevent entropy (decay?) while they are alive. On the other hand, natural, non-living processes do no such thing, and increase entropy as governed by the law of thermodynamics. We could also use criteria such as growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction. However, crystalline structures also grow and chemical processes…

The problem with that definition is there are other types of systems that do that. But it certainly is an essential part of the definition.

Re: New Giant Viruses Further Blur the Definition of Life

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats "The Categories Were Made For Man, Not Man For The Categories". Sb trying to push sb else to use a definition meets the second part of the sentence.

>Sb trying to push sb else to use a definition meets the second part of the sentence. This is post-modernism in thin disguise. Certain categorizations can be more valuable (practical, useful, just, etc) than others, in which case it's reasonable to rally for their use over other, less valueable, categorizations.

It's post-modernism only if you assume that human beings have no set, general psychological characteristics and are entirely the product of socialization. Otherwise it is pragmatism.
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