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China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

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Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#91

Post by ilamont »

balthasar wrote: post #77
ilamont wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When strongman-based cults of personality (real or wannabe) appoint themselves ruler for life, policy can go off the rails. Wars, purges, persecution of minority groups, and civil unrest are more likely. Corrupt systems of checks and balances, which may have already been weak, slide ever further. Mao, Stalin, Chavez, Castro, Hitler, Mussolini, Chiang Kai-Shek ... a few of these strongmen presided over brief periods o…

Typo there with Chavez? Democratically elected and rose the quality of life of Venezuela.

Hitler came to power on top of a democratic system, too (IIRC, by leveraging political alliances and grassroots violence in the pre-1933 parliamentary system). He surely improved the quality of life for the Nazi base in the mid-30s after he took power.

Didn't stop him from dismantling democratic institutions, eliminating all political rivals, invading his neighbors, and murdering millions of people.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#92

Post by zentiggr »

jjaredsimpson wrote: post #69
aaron-lebo wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What scares me more is the cheerleading and defense of this in the West, and the way this is voluntarily happening here. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01J24C0TI This is a telescreen.

Anonymity paired with speech is a new modern invention which didn't always exist. I don't this it is necessarily true that that kinds of speech is always for the ultimate good. I'm fine with societies experimenting with more surveillance with the aim of improving people's behavior. It just seems like the modern version of sitting around a fire face to face and not being an asshole.

> I'm fine with societies experimenting with more surveillance with the aim of improving people's behavior.

If only that surveillance didn't open up avenues for exploitation, targeting, and suppression even more.

And I'm pretty sure we've got a little too much "cpmpliance" monitoring as we are right now... I'm ready for ALPRs, Stingrays, and a bunch of other LEO practices to get curtailed or even stopped outright.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#93

Post by phyller »

balthasar wrote: post #77
ilamont wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When strongman-based cults of personality (real or wannabe) appoint themselves ruler for life, policy can go off the rails. Wars, purges, persecution of minority groups, and civil unrest are more likely. Corrupt systems of checks and balances, which may have already been weak, slide ever further. Mao, Stalin, Chavez, Castro, Hitler, Mussolini, Chiang Kai-Shek ... a few of these strongmen presided over brief periods o…

Typo there with Chavez? Democratically elected and rose the quality of life of Venezuela.

He might have raised the quality of life temporarily (I'm not sure even about that), but what is happening now in Venezuela was practically inevitable. You might be warmer for a little while as you take apart your house and burn it piece by piece, but in the end you will more assuredly freeze. In my opinion, it was a great tragedy that Chavez is not still alive today. Now people can say ridiculous things like this. If he was alive today, Venezuela would still be collapsing and it would be clear whose fault it was.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#94

Post by backspin »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #75
backspin wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. At least in my family most of my older Chinese relatives prefer order and peace to American democracy, for their income increased dramatically over the past 5 years. But I guess after family income gets to certain threshold, people will start weighting more on freedom.

But if you get to any Chinese over 60, they still remember the chaotic cultural revolution very clearly, they definitely don’t want a return to strongman cult of personality Maoism where Xi seems to be going. Xi is the last vestige of Maoism, the last president who grew up under Mao’s shadow. The next generation of leadership is surely going to be much more modern than any before it. That they are delaying it for som…

Not sure how to explain this best, but let's just say cultural revolution's most devastating impact was on culture. If you ask any elderly with good upbringing, you'll probably hear the answers you expect, but I'm from a working class family, and the only bad thing my relatives experienced was unable to go to college.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#95

Post by ShorsHammer »

yusuke10 wrote: post #60
api wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China's GDP is doing great, and GDP growth is the only thing that matters to quite a few people.

FAKE gdp. most likely 0% gdp growth, if not negative. China’s 2015 GDP Was Exaggerated By Fake Data, Analysis Shows ( https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-01/china-s-2... ) Another Chinese city admits 'fake' economic data ( https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-economy-data/anothe... ) This Is How China's Regions Fare in the Fake GDP Data Stakes ( https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-19/this-…

Two of your links suggest gdp growth of around 6% still.

They fake data to move gdp fractions of a percent.

Outright lying doesn't help further your argument. There's some excellent independent estimates of Chinas gdp out there.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#96

Post by phyller »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #75
backspin wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. At least in my family most of my older Chinese relatives prefer order and peace to American democracy, for their income increased dramatically over the past 5 years. But I guess after family income gets to certain threshold, people will start weighting more on freedom.

But if you get to any Chinese over 60, they still remember the chaotic cultural revolution very clearly, they definitely don’t want a return to strongman cult of personality Maoism where Xi seems to be going. Xi is the last vestige of Maoism, the last president who grew up under Mao’s shadow. The next generation of leadership is surely going to be much more modern than any before it. That they are delaying it for som…

Or maybe he is the first of the next generation of leaders that has forgotten the lessons learned under Mao.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#97

Post by gurkendoktor »

jjaredsimpson wrote: post #69
aaron-lebo wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What scares me more is the cheerleading and defense of this in the West, and the way this is voluntarily happening here. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01J24C0TI This is a telescreen.

Anonymity paired with speech is a new modern invention which didn't always exist. I don't this it is necessarily true that that kinds of speech is always for the ultimate good. I'm fine with societies experimenting with more surveillance with the aim of improving people's behavior. It just seems like the modern version of sitting around a fire face to face and not being an asshole.

Echo Show is not an anonymous broadcast platform. Using it to talk to friends is the modern version of doing it face to face; why do we suddenly need to have corporations or the government in the middle?

It is true that societies are experimenting with policing what people say online; Germany's attempts to combat hate speech and fake news come to mind. But that is (hopefully) different from punishing political dissent.

Do you honestly believe that it is better for society if people can't openly say "I disagree with removing presidential term limits"?

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#98

Post by gurkendoktor »

phyller wrote: post #28

It's amazing to me how China is so effectively creating a 1984-type situation without much stir among the rest of the world. These chat programs are super important for everyday life in China. The same company that provides chatting also provides your ability to pay for everything, and a credit score that determines what you can buy, how much you pay, and more. So if you say something you shouldn't, this could very e…

Using WeChat can already destroy your life: http://www.zeit.de/feature/freedom-of-press-china-zhang-miao...

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#99

Post by seanmcdirmid »

phyller wrote: post #96
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if you get to any Chinese over 60, they still remember the chaotic cultural revolution very clearly, they definitely don’t want a return to strongman cult of personality Maoism where Xi seems to be going. Xi is the last vestige of Maoism, the last president who grew up under Mao’s shadow. The next generation of leadership is surely going to be much more modern than any before it. That they are delaying it for som…

Or maybe he is the first of the next generation of leaders that has forgotten the lessons learned under Mao.

Xi came of age during the cultural revolution, which means he participated as a red guard, was sent down to the country side, went to college late, and much of his college education was ideological rather than practical. He is the first leader who is a career politician (has an engineering degree but never used it) and the first whose appointment is clearly about nepotism rather than merit. So...interesting guy.

Re: China’s web censors go into overdrive as President Xi Jinping consolidates power

#100

Post by phyller »

Analemma_ wrote: post #21
tonylinn80 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not surprising at all. In fact, many of the Chinese expats (visitors of mitbbs.com) are pro-china in general. They become less agreeing to western values after spending years in US. (I am one of those examples myself)

> green account created 2 days ago to post on news about Xi abolishing term limits I'm curious, do you literally get 50 cents for each of these posts, or are you salaried?

The moment the Chinese government becomes aware of hacker news and starts paying people 50 cents a post, we won't be able to even find the legitimate comments under the epic pile of shill :D

I'm surprised it hasn't happened yet, when I think about it.

Also, there are actual Chinese people (a lot of them) that are pretty supportive of their government. And many that aren't. But unfortunately you can't assume trolling behavior based on this.

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