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The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

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Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#91
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For you, university was a means to the end of learning academic thinking. For me, it was a means to the end of attaining a decent job. There are certainly arguments to be made that university is by definition, in original intent, and in theory solely a vehicle for teaching academic thought, but I think the pragmatic counter to them is a poll of "why are you here?"[1] , and should be considered valid. The end result i…

Well then, might it be wise to realise that “why are you here” is a question that is based off perception? A generation of financially secure parents have pushed the mindset of Degree==Job. An understandable choice, based on the idea of attaining the best start possible in life. Whatever reasons, whatever perceptions, the role of the University is unchanging and should remain steadfast; A University is there to creat…

I feel that the perception is in fact material to the reality, because if people do go to university not to become academics, and do leave it not as academics, and do feel it has met its purpose in those cases, then clearly it is not presently there solely for that cause.

But I think we actually agree -- I would just amend your statement to be an aspiration rather than a description: "A university should be there to create new academics."

I feel saddened that in practice (in great part due to the reasons we've each outlined), it is not.

Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#92
Seems like having to choose only one learning/teaching style is a false dicotomy.

E.g. I've been doing software a long time, so like the github guy in OP who liked project based learning, that works really well for me when I basically already know what I'm doing. E.g. I know C-based languages really well, put me on a project with a new language, and I'll pick it up, np. Learning a new language by drilling would be very boring for me.

But if I'm learning something truly new/novel to me, e.g. machine learning or Haskell, where I have zero existing intuition for how it works, then drilling constitute parts is very useful.

Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#93
I study computer eng. with a projects based approach (teams of 2, 2 weeks projects) and I believe that it is much better than regular classes. Yes you miss theory, yes you don't go into the details of everything, but you get more real-world experience and you actually need to work by yourself to learn something. In regular classes, you can be passive and just listen, but with projects you have to research, talk with people, try (and fail). If you have great mentorship, you will gain more during those "sprints".

We also have a co-op program which is the best thing in the world really. I simply don't understand why most universities don't have one. We do 4 months of school then 4 months of work in a company (then repeat). 5 internships during a 4 years bachelor give you almost 2 years of experience when you get out of university. Since they are paid internships, you can live well during school semesters and you don't have to work while studying. In addition, you know way more what type of job you want to do since you tried so many different companies. I personally know that I like smaller companies that operate in the fintech market and that I like backend more than anything else I tried.

Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#94
I agree that small exercises are good for teaching individual skills (e.g. a chess player practicing with only a few pieces on the board), but projects put the reason you are practicing into context. It's a motivator to practice. It shows smaller skills combined to produce some desired behavior.

I think a critical piece left out of the article is the role of emotional affect. Many people are learning because they want to produce a big, realistic set of behaviors (a project), so a good learning curriculum will motivate through a project and drill through small, independent exercises.

Another example, the article mentions Haskell being more useful for teaching cs concepts compared to node, or piano for teaching musical theory. While this might be true, we also need learn how motivated students will be to use these tools over others. At the end of the day, the usefulness of a tool for teaching concepts will be (its effectiveness when used)*(how motivated people are to use it).

Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#95
PBL works best in the presence of learning objectives, such that the project has domain deliverables, but is also explicitly designed to lead to learning outcomes. (In a team project, these objectives are mostly defined at the level of the student, not the team.) Ideally, these learning objectives are shared with, and maybe even, in a college course and maybe earlier, co-developed with the student.

“5 PBL Pitfalls to Avoid” [^1] may not be the final or best word on PBL, and it focuses more on PBL in primary education, but it's relevant and I was able to find it in ten seconds via Google. ([^2], which links to this, is the top hit for “project based learning”.) “The Practice is not the Performance” would be a stronger article if it either (1) responded to PBL as it's actually used (in my understanding and experience) in schools, or (2) argued that, and why, college-level applications typically stumble into the pitfalls in [^1]. (Which may indeed be true, but I'm not prepared on the content of “The Practice” to weight the authors claims over my own experience.)

The author's other point is around isolation practice. Well, yes. Olin's current Software Design course (intro to Python and programming, typically taken in the second semester) takes a textbook approach[^3] to the basic concepts of programming and computational thinking, and introduces projects as concurrent stream. But also — musicians, athletes, and other performance practitioners are often advised not to perform isolations to the exclusion of longer phrases or entire pieces, lest (1) they forget how to combine the elements into a fluid whole, or (2) they remove the feedback loops that tell them what areas of weakness to isolate. The software analogue of (1) might be design principles and practices that don't appear with isolated elements or at small scale. The software analogue of using isolations within a project context might include discovering that you don't understand a language feature well enough to use it or debug it, taking time out to explore it by reading or experimentation, and then returning to the project. This doesn't downplay the importance of isolations, but it uses them as a complement to PBL, not a substitute.

I think there's a lot to be learned about software engineering (which I think is what the author means when he refers to “CS”) from instruction in music and in studio arts, but it's better learned from a deeper look at both formal and informal instruction in these areas.

There are some open questions, not (I believe) mentioned in the article but raised in some of the comments here:

* Who is PBL appropriate for? For example, Olin College uses PBL — mostly within the context of Team-Based Learning (TBL) — extensively. However, the Olin admissions process[^4] evaluates candidates within the context of a group activity, which overlaps substantially with PBL and TBL, and provides not only information about the candidates to the students, faculty, staff, and alumni on the team, but also provides a taste of the TBL/PBL experience to prospective students, that they can use to self-select prior to matriculation.

* In what domains is PBL applicable? It seems to me a clear win for many engineering, design, and entrepreneurship topics. Olin's Quantitative Engineering Analysis[^5][^6] is a multi-year experiment in applying PBL to introductory-college-level math and physics.

[^1]: Frank McKay, “5 PBL Pitfalls to Avoid”. https://www.edutopia.org/article/5-pbl-pitfalls-avoid

[^2]: Edutopia, “Project-Based Learning”. https://www.edutopia.org/project-based-learning?gclid=CjwKCA...

[^3]: Literally. Allen Downey, who designed an early version of the course and is on the faculty, wrote the textbook: _Think Python_. http://greenteapress.com/wp/think-python-2e/

[^4]: Olin College, “Candidates Weekends”. http://www.olin.edu/admission/candidates-weekends/

[^5]: Olin College, “QEA”. http://meet.olin.edu/olin-isms/quantitative-engineering-anal...

[^6]: Olin College, “Changing Course”. http://www.olin.edu/the-wire/2016/changing-course/

Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#96
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer is that you've learned to learn. You got some breath of knowledge, not everything is relevant but it helps putting things in perspective. This is crucial. But the most important thing is that you've learned how to quickly adapt and pick up new things. This is what is valuable and in combination with a broad understanding is very much worth the education. It is okay if the understanding is shallow or even o…

Learning to learn is an important skill. But so is the ability to do a job. Some companies have the resources available to take a fresh grad that knows theory, concepts, and how to learn, and then get them up to speed on how to actually do the job they've been hired for. Some WANT people that only know how to learn and the concepts, so they can teach them how to do it the "X Company Way". But a whole lot don't. A who…

I have always felt that these takes highly overstate how difficult practical part is. It is significatly easier then it is made up to be.

Also, you should not expect even seniors to hit the ground runing, unless you hire on total complete match of both culture, code style and exact libraries being used. In which case you should not be surprised about there being lack of qualified applicants. Even experienced seniors need to learn every single time they change a job and thus also tech stack.

Moreover, many agile companies are basically organized to cater to unexperienced programmer.

Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#97
It fails to address an important aspect of learning by projects: Being exposed to the problems. You are orders of magnitude more productive when learning the solutions to problems you have encountered before. This kind of motivation can only be achieved if you really do stuff.

Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#98
post #84

> After finishing his first two Android apps I think this guy's definition of project based learning is "large finished project". My idea of project based learning (which as a self learner I use quite a lot), is very _very_ small examples, try to make those examples work in the most unpolished way from a user perspective (focus on the core functionality) and explore the different ways in which they can work as a way…

> Disclaimer: I've read nothing about project based learning, I only recognise it as a concept that has emerged in my own personal learning strategies as I am sure it has in many others.

You may not have read anything about it, but you've nailed it.

If it's project-based learning, the learning has to take precedence over the project.

This is why I had side projects when I was a software engineer.

Most day job projects have to work, with minimal (technical, schedule, etc.) risk, and minimal development time and other costs. For a low-innovation project, this generally means using familiar tools. For an innovative project there's still plenty of skill development, but often in circumscribed areas. (This is true for journeyman to master engineers. When you're early in your career, you get learning opportunities for free out of any halfway-decent environment.)

A side project can take an arbitrary amount longer, or fail, without letting your team or organization down. (Or, a side-project with a team can be a designed as a learning experience, if that's a shared team goal. This is gigging with your band, not building with your crew.) This creates the space for prioritizing new concepts and skills, and practice on weaker skills.

Re: The Practice is not the Performance: Why project-based learning fails

#100
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So do you think Aalborg students are better than DTU's?

CS and SE are different lines, I think most DTU students would fall under project based learning. I think Aalborg CD students are far superior to students from Aarhus or KU, but only as production ready candidates that can work in a team, not necessarily for R&D.

What about IT University Copenhagen?

I'm curious as I graduated from DTU several years ago. But since I'm not Danish and I moved back to Oxbridge I lack insights on the different universities out there.

DTU was a very nice theory + project-based learning setup. IMHO, along with Chalmers and a few others, a really underrated option. It was quite heavy and rigorous on the theory side of things.

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