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Orcas can imitate human speech, research reveals

theguardian.com

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Re: Orcas can imitate human speech, research reveals

#91

Post by sethbannon »

noobermin wrote: post #89
sethbannon wrote: post #17

Listening to these remarkable recordings, I can't help but think that as time goes on, more and more of the artificial mental barriers we've built between us and non-human animals will fall. I hope with more research humanity stops seeing non-human animals as resources to be exploited but rather as sentient beings to be respected.

I think we need to draw a line somewhere. Are plants not "resources to be exploited?" How about the bacteria in our gut? Ok, how about insects, say you don't even kill insects, what about if you accidentally step on a worm on a rainy day? Should we create "insect free zones" that keep bugs out (somehow) so that insects don't get needlessly killed on sidewalks or roads? What about rats? Rats and house mice carry harmf…

Yes, we do need to draw the line somewhere. I'm glad you agree. I'm also glad you agree that we shouldn't cause suffering to Orcas, Dolphins, primates, or elephants. Why do you think we should not cause suffering to those non-human animals but think that it's ok to cause suffering to other non-human animals?

My line in the sand is sentience (the ability to suffer). What's yours?

Re: Orcas can imitate human speech, research reveals

#92

Post by fjsolwmv »

noobermin wrote: post #89
sethbannon wrote: post #17

Listening to these remarkable recordings, I can't help but think that as time goes on, more and more of the artificial mental barriers we've built between us and non-human animals will fall. I hope with more research humanity stops seeing non-human animals as resources to be exploited but rather as sentient beings to be respected.

I think we need to draw a line somewhere. Are plants not "resources to be exploited?" How about the bacteria in our gut? Ok, how about insects, say you don't even kill insects, what about if you accidentally step on a worm on a rainy day? Should we create "insect free zones" that keep bugs out (somehow) so that insects don't get needlessly killed on sidewalks or roads? What about rats? Rats and house mice carry harmf…

Why does sentience matter? Why do humans deserve a right to a life free of imposed suffering?

Re: Orcas can imitate human speech, research reveals

#93

Post by robocat »

gadders wrote: post #4

Seals can do this too [1]. Worth clicking on the link to hear the strong New England accent that Hoover the Seal had. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoover_(seal)

Wikipedia audio:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mgm_Hoover_the_talking_...

Re: Orcas can imitate human speech, research reveals

#94

Post by noobermin »

sethbannon wrote: post #91
noobermin wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we need to draw a line somewhere. Are plants not "resources to be exploited?" How about the bacteria in our gut? Ok, how about insects, say you don't even kill insects, what about if you accidentally step on a worm on a rainy day? Should we create "insect free zones" that keep bugs out (somehow) so that insects don't get needlessly killed on sidewalks or roads? What about rats? Rats and house mice carry harmf…

Yes, we do need to draw the line somewhere. I'm glad you agree. I'm also glad you agree that we shouldn't cause suffering to Orcas, Dolphins, primates, or elephants. Why do you think we should not cause suffering to those non-human animals but think that it's ok to cause suffering to other non-human animals? My line in the sand is sentience (the ability to suffer). What's yours?

Ok I don't think I saw that explicitly in your post; it seemed like you implied all non-human animals should be considered sentient. Anyway, the ability to suffer honestly is a little difficult for me because I don't know what definition of suffering could be defined in the first place. As humans, we are the same species, so we can empathize with each others' suffering as we can communicate with each other. Not all animals can communicate with us, so we can't know whether they suffer or what that means.

From a mere "observation" stand point along the lines "behaviorism," well almost all animals including insects "suffer" and "feel pain" because they react to violent stimuli. So, that means we probably can't from your line in the sand hurt almost any mammal or insect. That seems a little extreme doesn't lead to a very pleasant life for more aware species like you and your friends. If you want to live like that, go ahead, but I don't think you have the right to impose that on other humans, who would find living like that extremely difficult.

I personally don't have definite line in the sand. I love rabbits (for I raised rabbits when I was a kid) and most rodents and wouldn't want to see them get hurt, but I used to have rat issues in my apartment, I had to kill them otherwise I'd be constantly sick, and that would impact people who I love and I need to be there for. I owe love to people I know before rodents. And for humans I don't know, would I fight for children on the east side of my city getting sick due to lead in the water? Yes, and before crying for the suffering of rats, cows, chickens, etc.

Re: Orcas can imitate human speech, research reveals

#95

Post by noobermin »

fjsolwmv wrote: post #92
noobermin wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we need to draw a line somewhere. Are plants not "resources to be exploited?" How about the bacteria in our gut? Ok, how about insects, say you don't even kill insects, what about if you accidentally step on a worm on a rainy day? Should we create "insect free zones" that keep bugs out (somehow) so that insects don't get needlessly killed on sidewalks or roads? What about rats? Rats and house mice carry harmf…

Why does sentience matter? Why do humans deserve a right to a life free of imposed suffering?

Because they are sentient, they deserve a right to a life free of imposed suffering. I can argue for why sentience matters, and see my other reply for that, but if you want to argue a different standard, you're going to have to do that instead of just asking why not.

Remember, most philosophies have to start from a set of axioms. I mean, fundamentally, no logical system can be complete anyway (Godel of course, althought philosophy is often leagues of abstraction beyond a set theory). I am comfortable setting the axiom at "sentience matters".

Re: Orcas can imitate human speech, research reveals

#96

Post by sethbannon »

noobermin wrote: post #94
sethbannon wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, we do need to draw the line somewhere. I'm glad you agree. I'm also glad you agree that we shouldn't cause suffering to Orcas, Dolphins, primates, or elephants. Why do you think we should not cause suffering to those non-human animals but think that it's ok to cause suffering to other non-human animals? My line in the sand is sentience (the ability to suffer). What's yours?

Ok I don't think I saw that explicitly in your post; it seemed like you implied all non-human animals should be considered sentient. Anyway, the ability to suffer honestly is a little difficult for me because I don't know what definition of suffering could be defined in the first place. As humans, we are the same species, so we can empathize with each others' suffering as we can communicate with each other. Not all a…

A lot of what you're saying makes a lot of sense. It's certainly very difficult to know if a non-human animal is suffering without them being able to communicate it using language. We can know when another human is suffering even if we don't speak their language because we can empathize with them, but this is harder for non-human animals.

I think you might be conflating "pain" with "suffering". Pain is simply a reaction to a negative stimuli. Pain response has been shown in plants and insects, for instance. But I don't place any value on pain that doesn't lead to a negative subjective experience. That's what I think is actually bad. Suffering has not been shown in plants or insects.

But there has been a lot of research showing that many non-human mammalian animals do suffer. Here's some research on chickens, for instance: https://rd.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10071-016-1064-4

And I've found this to be a good resource for navigating the sentience debate: http://www.animal-ethics.org/sentience-section/

Re: Orcas can imitate human speech, research reveals

#97

Post by pdx »

MisterBastahrd wrote: post #85
ImSkeptical wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can't we respect human dignity like those communists who murdered and starved tens of millions of people, ruined economies, and consigned countless people to oppression and deprivation?

Yes, human dignity like those capitalists who drilled giant oil wells in Nigeria, poisoned the land and the people, hired hit squads terrorize the native populace, then fled the country overnight when the regime changed.

I think you're talking about Shell Oil in the 1990's, and their requesting the Nigerian military to help them deal with violent protesters, and allegedly peaceful protesters as well. Yep, that sounds like a problem that needed addressed.

That pales compared to the atrocities that have been done in the name of communism. It's frightening that young people have forgotten those lessons, even the oldest of which is less than 100 years ago.

The ideal of sacrificing the individual to benefit the group is where communism always ends up, and from there, it's never a long slide to the disappearings, the executions and the starvation. The American ideal of protecting the individual, even at the expense of the group is much more inline with the world I want to live in. Happily, you still end up with a strong group, since it's composed of motivated individuals that feel safe.

Re: Orcas can imitate human speech, research reveals

#98

Post by ImSkeptical »

coldtea wrote: post #61
ImSkeptical wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why can't we respect human dignity like those communists who murdered and starved tens of millions of people, ruined economies, and consigned countless people to oppression and deprivation?

How is a response about what communists did relevant to a critique of capitalism? Except if one can't think of any other alternative or starting point from which to criticize capitalism but communism (and even more so, how some specific regimes practiced it).

Communism is the typical alternative to capitalism.

Re: Orcas can imitate human speech, research reveals

#99

Post by posterboy »

sethbannon wrote: post #91
noobermin wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we need to draw a line somewhere. Are plants not "resources to be exploited?" How about the bacteria in our gut? Ok, how about insects, say you don't even kill insects, what about if you accidentally step on a worm on a rainy day? Should we create "insect free zones" that keep bugs out (somehow) so that insects don't get needlessly killed on sidewalks or roads? What about rats? Rats and house mice carry harmf…

Yes, we do need to draw the line somewhere. I'm glad you agree. I'm also glad you agree that we shouldn't cause suffering to Orcas, Dolphins, primates, or elephants. Why do you think we should not cause suffering to those non-human animals but think that it's ok to cause suffering to other non-human animals? My line in the sand is sentience (the ability to suffer). What's yours?

Need - The source of suffering is desire. In an holistic approach, everything is part of me, my perception of the world. So I have to weigh the needs I can fulfill--not only my own--against the suffering I can endure. But there is no clear dividing line, only a fractal of high Hausdorff-dimension.

Re: Orcas can imitate human speech, research reveals

#100

Post by nerfhammer »

freeflight wrote: post #78
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans presumably are seen as sentient yet [the majority of us?] are being exploited in one way or another: Capitalism has no inbuilt concept of respect. If you meant not exploited for food, that is obviously different. I'm not aware of any humans that do that anymore. Now tell me how you judge sentience?

It's really sad how any kind of critique of capitalism, no matter how minor, instantly triggers, the very same and very predictable, knee-jerk responses along the lines of "Communism killed billions!". Like the wonders of capitalism don't kill anybody or like there are only those two choices between capitalism and some Soviet-style centrally planned communism. Which begs the question: Do these people really think we'…

Optimal allocation of finite time and resources on a society scale is a hard problem.

Supposed alternatives to capitalism tend to ignore that. Bad economics of all stripes tends to assume some form betrayal theory as the only issue.

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