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Apple: Chinese firm to operate China iCloud accounts

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Re: Apple: Chinese firm to operate China iCloud accounts

#91

Post by innagadadavida »

debt wrote: post #29

I absolutely believe Apple's foray into China is a huge misstep for the Apple brand. Imagine when all the censorship and surveillance and the actions taking with personal data start surfacing, they're going to very quickly try to get out. Apple pulling VPN apps off the App Store is just the beginning. It may be a big market, but I think Apple shouldn't be there under the Apple name, because stuff like this shows me t…

Why do people in USA care about what the Chinese government does? It's not like you are willing to take care of it's citizens, but the Chinese government has a responsibility and they seem to be trading off fairness so fewer people are impoverished.

Re: Apple: Chinese firm to operate China iCloud accounts

#92

Post by seanmcdirmid »

msh wrote: post #85
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who is "They"? If it is "Tim Cook", then Tim Cook has the right to be CEO and do business in China, or get fired. If you mean Apple stock holders, I'm sure they wouldn't be happy about taking a huge hit on their second or (at times) first largest market. Would you be willing to slice your retirement savings in half for this?

Google pulled out of China, so some times companies put principles before short term profit. Something Tim Cook have claimed apple also does, but apparently not in regards to China.

Google wasn't making > 25% of their money in China. I applauded Google's move when they did it back then (and I worked down the street from their Wudaokou office), but it is completely obvious why Apple, as a public company who makes a lot of money in China, can't pull out now.

Re: Apple: Chinese firm to operate China iCloud accounts

#93

Post by stcredzero »

jstanley wrote: post #90
stcredzero wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's exponentially more difficult for the Chinese government to wield data against me than it is for the British government, as I do not live somewhere where the Chinese government has any power over me. It depends mostly on the nature of the data, and how much interest they have in you. If the data is damning enough, and they would find value in using it against you, then the Chinese government is perfectly able to…

Right, but if you're not in China at all, the Chinese government don't care about you. So it's (in some respects) safer to have your data managed in a foreign country than in the country you live in, as a counterpoint to the claim that "it makes so much more sense that your data is subject to the law in the country you reside in".

Right, but if you're not in China at all, the Chinese government don't care about you.

In the vast majority of cases, yes. In an absolute sense, no.

So it's (in some respects) safer to have your data managed in a foreign country than in the country you live in, as a counterpoint to the claim that "it makes so much more sense that your data is subject to the law in the country you reside in".

There is a point to that.

Re: Apple: Chinese firm to operate China iCloud accounts

#94

Post by [deleted] »

innagadadavida wrote: post #91
debt wrote: post #29

I absolutely believe Apple's foray into China is a huge misstep for the Apple brand. Imagine when all the censorship and surveillance and the actions taking with personal data start surfacing, they're going to very quickly try to get out. Apple pulling VPN apps off the App Store is just the beginning. It may be a big market, but I think Apple shouldn't be there under the Apple name, because stuff like this shows me t…

Why do people in USA care about what the Chinese government does? It's not like you are willing to take care of it's citizens, but the Chinese government has a responsibility and they seem to be trading off fairness so fewer people are impoverished.

[deleted]

Re: Apple: Chinese firm to operate China iCloud accounts

#95

Post by emptybits »

innagadadavida wrote: post #88
emptybits wrote: post #69

Apple's compliance with Beijing is morally weak but financially strong, not just for them but for Apple Developers. A month ago, Apple noted that it has 1.8 million developers in China (and/or developers publishing to China -- not clear to me). At any rate, the Apple platform has made those developers $17 billion dollars.[1] So China is big business for Apple developers and I assume many of those developers are US/CA…

When you say "moral" are they your morals or the developer's and China's morals? Does your morals accommodate theirs or is it too restrictive?

Yes, those are my own assessments.

It's possible that someone could view Apple's decision to compromise its customers privacy to remain in the Chinese market as "morally strong". I would like to hear a defense of that position if someone held it.

Apple's decision appears to be legally compliant but morality must transcend legality in my worldview. i.e. the "good men" argument per Emerson or others

Re: Apple: Chinese firm to operate China iCloud accounts

#96

Post by bitmapbrother »

If you ever needed a sign that Apple cares more about making money than their user's privacy than this is it. If Apple really respected their user's privacy than they should take a stand and lets the chips fall where they may. If this is the cost of doing business in China then perhaps Apple should rethink its strategy.

Re: Apple: Chinese firm to operate China iCloud accounts

#97

Post by bitmapbrother »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #92
msh wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google pulled out of China, so some times companies put principles before short term profit. Something Tim Cook have claimed apple also does, but apparently not in regards to China.

Google wasn't making > 25% of their money in China. I applauded Google's move when they did it back then (and I worked down the street from their Wudaokou office), but it is completely obvious why Apple, as a public company who makes a lot of money in China, can't pull out now.

Your comment just proved his point that Apple puts their Chinese profits over their user's privacy. What percentage of Google's profits would come from China had they stayed there and acquiesced to the government demands? 15%? 20%? I wonder how much profit Google has missed out on by not doing business in China.

Re: Apple: Chinese firm to operate China iCloud accounts

#98

Post by bitmapbrother »

"At Apple, we believe privacy is a fundamental human right."[1]

Unless you live in China in which case your fundamental human rights take a back seat.

I did a Google translate on their Chinese web page:

"At Apple, we treat privacy as the fundamental right of everyone."[2]

Perhaps Google translate messed up and missed the "human rights" part from the Chinese translation, but I'm guessing it didn't.

[1]https://www.apple.com/privacy/

[2]https://www.apple.com/cn/privacy/

Re: Apple: Chinese firm to operate China iCloud accounts

#99

Post by seanmcdirmid »

bitmapbrother wrote: post #97
seanmcdirmid wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google wasn't making > 25% of their money in China. I applauded Google's move when they did it back then (and I worked down the street from their Wudaokou office), but it is completely obvious why Apple, as a public company who makes a lot of money in China, can't pull out now.

Your comment just proved his point that Apple puts their Chinese profits over their user's privacy. What percentage of Google's profits would come from China had they stayed there and acquiesced to the government demands? 15%? 20%? I wonder how much profit Google has missed out on by not doing business in China.

It isn't there choice! Apple isn't a person, you have to understand that. Apple is your retirement fund or whatever investment, its a public company. Tim Cook can either say "I want us to be in China" or he can leave, because no sane board is going to let him stay and say otherwise. Blame capitalism, blame human desire for money, whatever, but don't blame the company for choosing the only option it had.

Google didn't miss out on much at all, it was clear way before they pulled out that they wouldn't be allowed to go very far in search. Also, Google only pulled out of search in China, they actually still do plenty of business in China.

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