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Frontmacs

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Re: Frontmacs

#91
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My problem is I consider vim to be the best text editor ever created. That is, when it comes to manipulating text, there is no equal. But it's a lousy (even terrible) "IDE". Between editing text and other dev related tasks (searching, diffing, autocomplete, etc), text editing is slightly more important to me, so I use vim. Using another editor/IDE with a vim emulator doesn't cut it. I've never found one that matches…

I actually wonder why there aren't more IDEs that just embed vim as their text editor. Ironically, the only one that can do something like that is emacs.

Doesn't VSCode embeds neovim already, so you can use neovim plugins from VSCode as well.

Re: Frontmacs

#92
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I think I should make it clear that I'm very well aware of what modern IDEs can do, and I think most Emacsens do too. In fact, their killer features haven't really changed much since the late 90s / early 00s. What I never liked in IDEs is their features come with a huge cost. Their integrated features are great, but their implementations are so complex and opaque, when they inevitably go wrong, I can't just div…

> Emacsens Nitpick. Emacsen refer to an editor in the Emacs family. It wasn't always the case that Emacs was equated with GNU Emacs.

Actually, 'emacsen' is the German plural for 'emacs', not the Scandinavian (?) for 'an emacs'.

Re: Frontmacs

#93
post #47

I have mixed feelings about emacs starter kits. On the one hand I'm always happy that more people might discover emacs. It's quite simply the most powerful text editor out there. Hands down. I could not imagine using a computer seriously without emacs. On the other hand, the power of emacs comes from the fact that it's essentially a lisp interpreter which is good at doing text editor stuff. If you abstract this away…

are your configs anywhere online? I'd love to read them.

I'm at the point in my emacs journey where I'm looking for places in my day-to-day editing that can be made more efficient by writing code that writes that code. I have implemented some helpful macros, but I think I would benefit a lot from reading macros written by a more experienced emacs programmer.

Re: Frontmacs

#94
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Emacsens Nitpick. Emacsen refer to an editor in the Emacs family. It wasn't always the case that Emacs was equated with GNU Emacs.

Actually, 'emacsen' is the German plural for 'emacs', not the Scandinavian (?) for 'an emacs'.

What language is "Scandinavian"? Also, perhaps the intention was that "Emacsen" was the literal name of a version of the emacs family of editors, of which GNU Emacs is only one (XEmacs, for example, being another one).

Re: Frontmacs

#95
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My problem is I consider vim to be the best text editor ever created. That is, when it comes to manipulating text, there is no equal. But it's a lousy (even terrible) "IDE". Between editing text and other dev related tasks (searching, diffing, autocomplete, etc), text editing is slightly more important to me, so I use vim. Using another editor/IDE with a vim emulator doesn't cut it. I've never found one that matches…

I actually wonder why there aren't more IDEs that just embed vim as their text editor. Ironically, the only one that can do something like that is emacs.

embed vim as their text editor

Part of that problem is that a really good IDE isn't editing text: it's editing code. One may retort "but code is stored in text files," and yes, that happens to be the primary serialization format but while it's in RAM the editor is making changes to the AST (for example)[1] and the MPS project[2] even strives to do away with "text file" façade entirely, allowing you to edit the parts that are truly editable, and just graphically render the syntatic sugar for everything else.

That distinction is relevant to the question because merely embedding vim would be problematic since the common language spoken between the IDE's mental model and vim's mental model is text, but I couldn't imagine the pain that would be involved in trying to send down the keystrokes required to update all occurrences of a variable, for example.

IntelliJ does have emacs bindings, and does have a vim plugin, but I've watched people use both of them and they suffer from the uncanny valley effect. Not to mention the fact that, and I can't stress this enough, entering character level keyboard shortcuts to change an AST is optimizing the wrong problem.

that can do something like that is emacs

I've actually spent many, many hours thinking about that very issue, and I am 100% convinced in my soul that a sufficiently determined person could in fact make Emacs as smart as IntelliJ. But the problem isn't making it that smart, it's keeping it up to date with the new bugfixes and rules. It might be possible (heh, or even preferable!) to write the AST manipulation and inspection rules using (e)lisp, but given how many developers know Java versus how many know lisps, I doubt a commercial company would bet the farm on such a thing.

---

1 = https://github.com/JetBrains/intellij-community/blob/idea/17...

2 = https://github.com/JetBrains/MPS/tree/2017.3.2#jetbrains-mps

Re: Frontmacs

#96
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Been there, done that, switched to JetBrains IDEs, and haven't looked back. My gut feeling is that people who haven't looked up from emacs or vi for a decade or two have no idea what modern IDEs are capable of out of the box.

Anything JetBrains does, emacs can be made to do. Someone should spend time extending it to do that, and share his work with the world.

I actually got half way through writing up a substantiating argument that JetBrains could benefit from AST manipulation and inspection written in a lisp-flavor, which would benefit both camps. But I actually don't know of a lisp with static typing, and reasonable people can differ about whether such a thing has merits, but for the purposes of this discussion, I bet trying to wire a dynamically typed language into a statically typed codebase would make everyone unhappy

Re: Frontmacs

#97
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree! I am not a developer or an overly technical person and I recently started using Emacs because of an article here (using ido and org mode). I like it but I'm not fluent enough, or know enough of what it does to switch to it for everyday tasks - but there's a beauty in navigating file systems, creating files, switching windows all with your keyboard. Does anyone know if you can actually write code on Emacs, like…

Does anyone know if you can actually write code on Emacs, like HTML/CSS/Javascript? Do you mean modifying Emacs while it is running? If you switch to the " * scratch * "[1] buffer and type one of these and after each of these either press «Ctrl-J» or «Alt-x eval-print-last-sexp»: (message "Hello, World!") (setq cursor-type 'hbar) (setq cursor-type 'box) (setq indicate-empty-lines t) (setq show-trailing-whitespace t)…

[deleted]

Re: Frontmacs

#99

> We don't want to maintain code, we just want to enter a few keystrokes and download more awesome. The phrase "download more awesome" makes me very strongly doubt whether the authors are genuinely experienced with the difficulties of software engineering.

Clearly they are. One phrase like that has no bearing on someone's experience.

Re: Frontmacs

#100
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Been there, done that, switched to JetBrains IDEs, and haven't looked back. My gut feeling is that people who haven't looked up from emacs or vi for a decade or two have no idea what modern IDEs are capable of out of the box.

My problem is I consider vim to be the best text editor ever created. That is, when it comes to manipulating text, there is no equal. But it's a lousy (even terrible) "IDE". Between editing text and other dev related tasks (searching, diffing, autocomplete, etc), text editing is slightly more important to me, so I use vim. Using another editor/IDE with a vim emulator doesn't cut it. I've never found one that matches…

I quite like the Jetbrains vim emulation (Ideavim). It has a few quirks I run into every once in a while, but I find the combination of Jetbrains + Ideavim worlds better than my highly customized vim install when coding on a non-trivial project.

However, if all I need is a text editor, such as when hacking out a script or two or doing actual writing, then it's terminal vim all day long.

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