The Pixelbook is being used to test Google's Fuchsia OS • Hacker News Board

Re: The Pixelbook is being used to test Google's Fuchsia OS

#91

Post by sitkack » Mon, Jan 01, 2018, 2:34 AM UTC

rcarmo wrote: post #61

ricardobeat wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Elementary is the OS you're looking for: https://elementary.io I wish it had more adoption. Right now there are not a lot of apps written using it's UI guidelines/framework as most projects are worried about portability and/or have moved to Electron. It is slowly getting better though, and seems to be developing an ecosystem geared towards quality as OSX used to be: https://medium.com/elementaryos/appcenter-spotlight…

I’ve been using Elementary for a year straight[1] and like it a lot, but I see it as Ubuntu with the “right” UX. (I also don’t see Linux developers flocking to it in droves, which is sad because it is a lot cleaner and easier to use than Gnome and KDE, IMHO, but then again Linux has always been more about diverging choices than unity—and I don’t mean the desktop environment here). The only thing Elementary needs to d…

Nothing is legacy free, at least not yet, we haven't figured that out yet. Everything you touch is future legacy. It is hubris to think one has solved this, or made something so good it will last for so long. The only legacy free thing is a void, but even it will be filled by an inferior solution in the future.

Re: The Pixelbook is being used to test Google's Fuchsia OS

#92

Post by sitkack » Mon, Jan 01, 2018, 2:38 AM UTC

rcarmo wrote: post #62

DiabloD3 wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish more distros would start supplying packages for Pantheon. I'm not interested in a distro that forks Ubuntu LTS + specially patched packages (because Gnome3 refuses to merge changes that fix problems, but only really benefit non-Gnome3 desktops (completely against the spirit of open source and GNU + FDO)), but I would love it to be based on a distro that is kept up to date (such as Debian or Arch).

I actually like that it’s LTS underneath, because I know I can run the machine for a couple of years with stable packages and then upgrade to the next version. I understand the appeal of more up-to-date stuff, but with Docker I can have my stable cake and swap toppings at will :)

Because operating systems and application cliches should be separate! Layers that slip smoothly past each other precisely via well defined protocols of interaction. Now() is an outdated concept if we are to build systems that can age with grace.

Re: The Pixelbook is being used to test Google's Fuchsia OS

#93

Post by badsectoracula » Mon, Jan 01, 2018, 2:39 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #78

badsectoracula wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is because someone's great feature is another's broken mess. For example, i cannot stand vsync anywhere with the only exception being video playback. I want my windows to follow the mouse precisely, not lag behind a few pixels, i want my games to react instantly, not lag a few milliseconds, etc. Yet GNOME, elementaryOS and even Wayland's whole design force it (well, Wayland could be implemented without vsync, bu…

The Right Way (TM) to do it is to always have V-SYNC but use a screen with high enough refresh where you can't notice the latency. 60 Hz is probably good enough for 95% of people, and Apple is moving to 120 Hz in devices like the iPad Pro.

I have my reservations about 120Hz being the right way since if you can see tearing at 120Hz without vsync it means that you can still perform actions that the refresh rate cannot keep up with and the vsync will introduce a delay. But without experiencing it myself i cannot be 100% sure. I am nitpicky about lag and reaction though so i have a feeling i wont like it unless it really is perfect :-P.

However regardless of vsync or not, i also dislike composition because it introduces yet another source for lag and at best you are at least a frame behind - unless your window updates are synced with the composition (which wont be because if that was possible then programs would be able to affect the compositor's own performance - imagine a game running at a 30fps in windowed mode, it would cause all window updates, etc to run at 30fps too if the updates were synchronized).

So, yeah, i'd rather stick with my compositionless, vsyncless, direct to front frame buffer X11 :-P.

EDIT: there is actually a way to have composition that works without lag and that is for the GPU to do the composition itself during the monitor refresh.

Re: The Pixelbook is being used to test Google's Fuchsia OS

#94

Post by kyrra » Mon, Jan 01, 2018, 3:23 AM UTC

dmitriid wrote: post #88

jkmcf wrote: post #2

Aside from control, what does this provide over Linux? IMO, the Linux desktop problem is due partially to relying on the antiquated X Windows system, but mostly a lack of funding a good vision, e.g. Unity. After growing up with OpenLook, then Motif, the plethora of Linux window managers, and unhappy years with Windows, I noticed most of the elegant apps were being written for OSX. I’m not sure how much of this is due…

> I believe Google could do this. I keep seeing people day this, and yet: Is there any evidence at all that Google can pull off designing something like this?

If it's worth anything, they do have some people on board that have done OS dev before [0]. Swetland had commented in this thread and other Fuchsia discussions on HN.

[0] https://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/08/15/googles_new_os_coul...

Re: The Pixelbook is being used to test Google's Fuchsia OS

#95

Post by bitmapbrother » Mon, Jan 01, 2018, 4:58 AM UTC

kardianos wrote: post #57

jkmcf wrote: post #2

Aside from control, what does this provide over Linux? IMO, the Linux desktop problem is due partially to relying on the antiquated X Windows system, but mostly a lack of funding a good vision, e.g. Unity. After growing up with OpenLook, then Motif, the plethora of Linux window managers, and unhappy years with Windows, I noticed most of the elegant apps were being written for OSX. I’m not sure how much of this is due…

I Disagree. I run Linux desktop on all my computers. I think you don't understand how much Google works to have security from design. Windows, Linux, OS X can all be fine "traditional" desktop systems (though the lack of a unified vision on Linux hurts it incredibly). I see Fuchsia as a desktop system that (a) has a native, fundamental concept of graphical desktop and (b) has deep sandboxing on a level similar to Chr…

I completely agree with this. Google wants a desktop class OS that they have complete control over and the ability to implement whatever features they want without any friction or compromises. I also think they also want an OS that has great interoperability with Android so that they can do a lot of the things Apple is doing with iOS and Mac OS. The RTOS capability is another benefit as it'll allow Fuchsia to be used in areas where Android may not well be suited such as the OS for self driving cars.

Re: The Pixelbook is being used to test Google's Fuchsia OS

#96

Post by taneq » Mon, Jan 01, 2018, 5:00 AM UTC

derefr wrote: post #48

yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> un-upstreamable for non-technical reasons It was my understanding that it was almost completely technical reason, i.e., vendors write drivers that mostly work but are completely terrible from a quality perspective.

Quality problems with code at this magnitude aren't really a technical problem (i.e. not something you can fix by asking the same programmers who created the problems to fix them.) It's rare that good programmers could write code as badly as these patches demonstrate. Even actively-harmful coding standards directed from the top down wouldn't cause this kind of code. Instead, the kind of code that ends up in these dri…

I don't know if this applies so much at the phone / laptop level, but for embedded devices, the example code / reference drivers are often terrible, but it's not entirely fair to blame the devs. This issue is usually not so much that they're bad programmers and more that they're good electronics engineers who, once the hardware is done, are the only people with the knowledge required to implement the drivers.

Re: The Pixelbook is being used to test Google's Fuchsia OS

#97

Post by bitmapbrother » Mon, Jan 01, 2018, 5:04 AM UTC

tw04 wrote: post #43

blablabla123 wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Linux distributors might be able to solve this. Obviously there are tons of Window managers and a dozen of consistent, working Desktop Environments. Ubuntu already made clear that they are moving away from X and moreover that a better UX on the WM part will be a priority. I use Linux again since this year after working almost only on OS X for 5 years or so. It has been more setup work than I wished but I'm really…

>Either they will support running Linux or Android drivers, or otherwise their system will be just useful for Marketing demos. Are you just saying that, or do you actually believe it? You think all of the phone vendors that write custom closed source drivers for Android will abandon Android if the core is no longer Linux? Seriously? And what, move to tizen? Windows phone? Be reasonable... Google can and will move to…

Not only will their partners move with them, but they'll probably offer any assistance to accelerate the process. Android OEM's and Linux have a complicated relationship.

Re: The Pixelbook is being used to test Google's Fuchsia OS

#98

Post by bitmapbrother » Mon, Jan 01, 2018, 5:09 AM UTC

dmitriid wrote: post #88

jkmcf wrote: post #2

Aside from control, what does this provide over Linux? IMO, the Linux desktop problem is due partially to relying on the antiquated X Windows system, but mostly a lack of funding a good vision, e.g. Unity. After growing up with OpenLook, then Motif, the plethora of Linux window managers, and unhappy years with Windows, I noticed most of the elegant apps were being written for OSX. I’m not sure how much of this is due…

> I believe Google could do this. I keep seeing people day this, and yet: Is there any evidence at all that Google can pull off designing something like this?

I'd be more interested in why you think Google can't. They have some of the best OS developers working on it in addition to a small army of developers working on it day and night.

Re: The Pixelbook is being used to test Google's Fuchsia OS

#99

Post by sseth » Mon, Jan 01, 2018, 8:22 AM UTC

cmurf wrote: post #38

From Wikipedia: Chrome OS is an operating system designed by Google that is based on the Linux kernel and uses the Google Chrome web browser as its principal user interface. OK so why not Google Chrome web browser on top of Fuchsia, instead of Linux kernel and the usual user space stuff? Google can call that retrofit anything they want, so it could still be Chrome OS.

I have been following Chrome development, and one of the things being done there is "servicification" of the blink engine - i.e. breaking it up into services accessed using Mojo. Fuchsia is also built with Mojo as the IPC mechanism. So reading the tea leaves, it seems to me that a "servicified" Chrome will be fully integrated into Fuchsia.

Besides this of course, Fuchsia shared many other components with chrome (the use of Skia for example). If we look at the direction for Flutter, Fuchsia and Chrome, it is clear that this is not some casual side-show but a very well thought out strategy.

Re: The Pixelbook is being used to test Google's Fuchsia OS

#100

Post by sseth » Mon, Jan 01, 2018, 9:15 AM UTC

evv wrote: post #32

Q6T46nT668w6i3m wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s entirely open source (including development and roadmap documents). Do you mean their product vision? If so, why does it matter when it already exists?

It matters hugely. If Fuchsia is a research project, then I'd keep an eye on it for engineering inspiration. But if Google's leaders plan to promote it as a serious replacement for Chrome and Android, then businesses might want to invest in Fuchsia app development.

I think the strategy is to make Flutter an attractive tool to build mobile apps across Android, iOS and Fuchsia (it already runs on all three today). Even in an alpha stage, it is a really productive framework for mobile development.

So if Flutter hits 1.0 or beta sometime next year, you would have a way to develop mobile apps for today's platform which will require a smaller investment to run on an eventual Fuchsia platform.