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Now that the FCC has repealed net neutrality, let’s adopt it in California

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Re: Now that the FCC has repealed net neutrality, let’s adopt it in California

#91

Post by AFNobody »

jayess wrote: post #88
cletus wrote: post #72

I'm all in favour of treating Internet access as the "fourth utility". It's clear it's become almost as essential to modern life as electricity. I do however find the doom and gloom prognostications around Title II repeal to be incredibly hyperbolic and unhelpful. Fact is, Title II was only introduced in 2015. It's not like repeal in 2017 is going to end the Internet overnight. There are three problems here: 1. The U…

So far today I've learned that a two year old policy being repealed is anti-gay, will stop women from getting abortions, will stop the black lives matter movement from speaking freely, and will prevent the #metoo movement from growing. Yes, all because the internet before 2015 was completely censored and prevented free speech. If anything, I've seen a significant rise in censorship since NN was passed. The hyperbole…

It isn't two years old. Its been a heavily disputed area of law/regulation since 1996 with various patchworks that served similar functions. From actual regulation, to threatening to regulate if there was too much backlash, to regulating again, to regulating under Title 2.

1996 Telecommunication Act: It was a legal gray area, particularly given dial up / dsl over telephone lines.

2002: FCC exempts NCTA by declaring it an information service, not telecommunications.

2005: NCTA wins at the Supreme Court

Open Internet Principles: 2005-2010 (i.e. Threatening to regulate)

Open Internet Order: 2010-2015 (Regulating, legally overturned)

Regulatory framework repealed today: 2015-2017

------------------

"If anything, I've seen a significant rise in censorship since NN was passed."

Censorship by whom? A bunch of websites that are completely separate entities from ISPs that are monopolies for all intents and purposes?

Re: Now that the FCC has repealed net neutrality, let’s adopt it in California

#92

Post by AFNobody »

SamReidHughes wrote: post #67
ruffrey wrote: post #57

The real solution to the problem, as I see it, is not even Net Neutrality (though I strongly support Net Neutrality). The solution is to break the monopolistic stranglehold on last-mile internet service. If it were possible to have competition in the last-mile ISP space, then consumers could vote with their wallets and choose those ISPs who supported Net Neutrality. An alternate partial solution would be to force com…

We've already got cellular data service that's much better than the first DSL line my family got. That stranglehold is weaker than you might think.

> We've already got cellular data service that's much better than the first DSL line my family got. That stranglehold is weaker than you might think.

Good luck using 500GB of cellular in a month.

Re: Now that the FCC has repealed net neutrality, let’s adopt it in California

#93

Post by cletus »

lumisota wrote: post #79
cletus wrote: post #72

I'm all in favour of treating Internet access as the "fourth utility". It's clear it's become almost as essential to modern life as electricity. I do however find the doom and gloom prognostications around Title II repeal to be incredibly hyperbolic and unhelpful. Fact is, Title II was only introduced in 2015. It's not like repeal in 2017 is going to end the Internet overnight. There are three problems here: 1. The U…

Title II was only introduced as a result of the Open Internet Order (from 2010) being overturned. Net neutrality principles have been sanctioned by the FCC since 2005; removing title II designation and moving away from these principles is a shift that should not be understated.

Actually Title II dates back to 1934.

Re: Now that the FCC has repealed net neutrality, let’s adopt it in California

#94

Post by jayess »

AFNobody wrote: post #91
jayess wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So far today I've learned that a two year old policy being repealed is anti-gay, will stop women from getting abortions, will stop the black lives matter movement from speaking freely, and will prevent the #metoo movement from growing. Yes, all because the internet before 2015 was completely censored and prevented free speech. If anything, I've seen a significant rise in censorship since NN was passed. The hyperbole…

It isn't two years old. Its been a heavily disputed area of law/regulation since 1996 with various patchworks that served similar functions. From actual regulation, to threatening to regulate if there was too much backlash, to regulating again, to regulating under Title 2. 1996 Telecommunication Act: It was a legal gray area, particularly given dial up / dsl over telephone lines. 2002: FCC exempts NCTA by declaring i…

'Censorship by whom? A bunch of websites that are completely separate entities from ISPs that are monopolies for all intents and purposes?'

Yes, those same web sites that are breathlessly telling me today the repealing NN is a mortal threat to my very existence, who then turn around and engage in censorship themselves.

Re: Now that the FCC has repealed net neutrality, let’s adopt it in California

#95

Post by lumisota »

cletus wrote: post #93
lumisota wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Title II was only introduced as a result of the Open Internet Order (from 2010) being overturned. Net neutrality principles have been sanctioned by the FCC since 2005; removing title II designation and moving away from these principles is a shift that should not be understated.

Actually Title II dates back to 1934.

Sorry; I (and presumably your original comment) meant the designation of Internet service providers as common carriers under Title II. This designation was applied in 2015.

Re: Now that the FCC has repealed net neutrality, let’s adopt it in California

#96

Post by bdhess »

myrandomcomment wrote: post #87
AndyMcConachie wrote: post #22

The inter-state commerce clause allows Federal Law to preempt state law in this case. Congress has imbued the FCC with the power to regulate(see Chevron v EPA) exactly this. States have no reserved power to regulate the behavior of telecoms.

Well that is not really true depending on if the state has ever regulated something in the past. For example cars used to come with CA emissions standard as an item because CA regulated air quality before the federal government. It is not in cache right now but I believe they way it came down was if the state has regulated in the past and the state rules are stronger then the federal then the state wins.

CA got an exemption for CARB written into the federal emissions law at the time it was drafted. That's not the same as being grandfathered in just by virtue of having been the first to regulate.

Re: Now that the FCC has repealed net neutrality, let’s adopt it in California

#97

Post by cletus »

AFNobody wrote: post #89
cletus wrote: post #72

I'm all in favour of treating Internet access as the "fourth utility". It's clear it's become almost as essential to modern life as electricity. I do however find the doom and gloom prognostications around Title II repeal to be incredibly hyperbolic and unhelpful. Fact is, Title II was only introduced in 2015. It's not like repeal in 2017 is going to end the Internet overnight. There are three problems here: 1. The U…

> I do however find the doom and gloom prognostications around Title II repeal to be incredibly hyperbolic and unhelpful. Fact is, Title II was only introduced in 2015. It's not like repeal in 2017 is going to end the Internet overnight. So when you say "it was only introduced in 2015", what you really mean is "it was a heavily disputed situation for 20 years in with multiple court cases being won and lost by ISPs".…

Again, hyperbolic.

Some action against Comcast throttling/blocking BitTorrent (in 2007-2009) ultimately resulted in action by the FCC in 2010, made rather toothless in 2014 with the provisions against blocking and throttling struck down.

So between 2010-2014 and 2015-2017 we have ~6 years of regulation, with the ISPs fighting it all the way (surprise surprise).

Just to clarify: I'm in agreement that we need net neutrality. I've just been around the block enough times to know that the FCC's latest action just isn't the end of the world.

Re: Now that the FCC has repealed net neutrality, let’s adopt it in California

#98

Post by AFNobody »

jayess wrote: post #94
AFNobody wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't two years old. Its been a heavily disputed area of law/regulation since 1996 with various patchworks that served similar functions. From actual regulation, to threatening to regulate if there was too much backlash, to regulating again, to regulating under Title 2. 1996 Telecommunication Act: It was a legal gray area, particularly given dial up / dsl over telephone lines. 2002: FCC exempts NCTA by declaring i…

'Censorship by whom? A bunch of websites that are completely separate entities from ISPs that are monopolies for all intents and purposes?' Yes, those same web sites that are breathlessly telling me today the repealing NN is a mortal threat to my very existence, who then turn around and engage in censorship themselves.

I would suggest you could create your own replacement for the sites that offend you.

Free market competition exists for websites and there is probably a market for it if you are upset about it.

Re: Now that the FCC has repealed net neutrality, let’s adopt it in California

#99

Post by bdhess »

shmerl wrote: post #29
AndyMcConachie wrote: post #22

The inter-state commerce clause allows Federal Law to preempt state law in this case. Congress has imbued the FCC with the power to regulate(see Chevron v EPA) exactly this. States have no reserved power to regulate the behavior of telecoms.

FCC failed to preempt local state laws that ban municipal broadband. How is that different? Or FCC only can do it when serving monopolists?

Because under our system municipalities, counties, etc only have as much authority as are delegated by the state.

Re: Now that the FCC has repealed net neutrality, let’s adopt it in California

#100

Post by ZeroGravitas »

dragonwriter wrote: post #47
warent wrote: post #43

I was under the impression that the majority voice in this argument (i.e. mortal American citizens) was completely against this. Yet it still ended up that they dismantled net neutrality. If it's true that the majority wanted to keep net neutrality, then how come the majority was ignored? Maybe I'm missing something but this seems like a good example that our voice in the US doesn't matter beyond local things like wh…

> If it's true that the majority wanted to keep net neutrality, then how come the majority was ignored? Because the majority (at least, as weighted for electoral influence in both political branches of government) has prioritized other things in voting for representatives. Legislation, whether direct votes or through representatives, involves not only opinions on particular questions, but opinions on the relative pri…

I don't think there's any basis to say the majority voted for other things over net-neutrality. The Republicans mostly hold power with minority votes.

In generaly, the things that the majority want don't get enacted under the US system e.g. the tax bill with very low approval, so net neutrality falls into the general bucket of stuff that the majority want but that the Republicans don't want to them have.

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