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Dopamine: An AI platform for designing human behavior

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Re: Dopamine: An AI platform for designing human behavior

#91

Post by Grangar »

RAB1138 wrote: post #38
Torn wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% agreed on the ethics note. Calling it 'dopamine' is also pretty remorseless. Interestingly, the creators of the like button and pull to refresh, and others, are pushing back against this 'attention economy': https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/oct/05/smartphon...

Paul (author on that piece) is wonderful! Not so much remorseless, we were just shooting for contrarian and attention grabbing...And here we are....knee deep in front page of HN hate mail...

Calling negative comments hate mail speaks volumes about you.

Re: Dopamine: An AI platform for designing human behavior

#92

Post by Grangar »

kaffeemitsahne wrote: post #81
RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #4

I am just waiting for a lawyer for someone with Internet Addiction ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3480687/ ) to sue this company over one of their supported apps. This is the kind of thing that I fear will prompt a backlash from the people and government and destroy the entire online ads regime that underpins the current Internet.

Why do you fear that? It would be wonderful.

Agreed, a good backlash is way overdue at this point.

Re: Dopamine: An AI platform for designing human behavior

#94

Post by Grangar »

RAB1138 wrote: post #49
zaptheimpaler wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats despicable. They sell both the disease and a cure for double the money.

Bruh. Did you even look at the price on Space?

Bruh. Just adding another app to 'counteract' the effects isn't going to suddenly clear you of ethical issues. It's the equivalent of mcdonalds selling salads...

Re: Dopamine: An AI platform for designing human behavior

#96

Post by dredmorbius »

Houshalter wrote: post #65
api wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A casino is usually more profitable than a hospital too. It's probably the central problem of capitalism. Monetary systems draw no distinction between wealth creation and wealth extraction, and the second law of thermodynamics guarantees that the latter will always be much easier. When you design chips, cure diseases, or build rockets you are fighting entropy. When you addict, misinform, and con people entropy is on…

Healthcare is a much larger percent of GDP than casinos for what it's worth. But your comment does remind me of http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/

And if you add the FIRE industries to that?

Or the addiction-feeding elements of healthcare -- opiates and other-than-therapeutic interventions.

https://www.selectusa.gov/financial-services-industry-united...

Re: Dopamine: An AI platform for designing human behavior

#97

Post by Grangar »

golergka wrote: post #68

So many accusations about 'evil' here, without any significant evidence. As I see it, this middle-ware is a tool that you can choose to use for evil or good - the tool doesn't get a moral value because of it's use. There is, of course, an argument that any manipulation of human behaviour is inherently evil, but it's a very weak one - if you manipulate a person to eat well, exercise, donate to charity, call their pare…

Manipulating people into donating to certain charities (churches?) could certainly be an evil thing in my book. And ESPECIALLY VOTING FOR A POLITICAL CAUSE. That is not okay.

Fact is that morals are relative and software companies shouldn't be the arbiters of that.

Re: Dopamine: An AI platform for designing human behavior

#98

Post by speedplane »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #90
speedplane wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Making games more addictive is not really all that "evil" or "reprehensible". It's not much different from making them more fun. What does need work is their messaging. Suggesting they can control users does not sit well. Instead, they could suggest they make games so much more fun, users boost in-game time. They need a lesson on marketing and messaging, the idea itself is fine.

> It's not much different from making them more fun. I've played quite a few games that were addictive but not fun . The difference is hard to spot when you're in the middle of it, but stark from the outside. Typically they start off being plain fun to draw you in, and then gradually segue into addictive after a few hours to keep you there.

Addictive games are often fun, I didn't say necessarily fun.

But that wasn't my point. My point is that it's not terribly evil to make a game addictive. Addictive qualities are only bad to the extent that the addictive thing hurts you (e.g., smoking, drugs). These games are all pretty harmless.

Re: Dopamine: An AI platform for designing human behavior

#99

Post by dontreact »

RAB1138 wrote: post #30
dontreact wrote: post #2

Even if the aims are benevolent, the naming and marketing copy just sound evil to me. They are trying to make it sound like they can turn your app into an addictive drug.

Contrarian, not evil, is more of the motto. You don't get anyone to listen if you just talk about an AI SaaS platform for long-term habit formation. It comes off as wonkish. Trust me, we tried ;)

Well first of all thank you for your reply and actually getting involved in the thread.

I have to say, I'm not convinced.

Yes of course if you say that your product is similar to a what a drug dealer would offer, then people are going to get interested because of the potential for returns on their money. You're just confirming my suspicion that branding things this way was in order to help get investment. I don't see how you are being contrarian. What is the popular opinion you are rejecting? That addiction is scary/harmful/a terrible thing to inflict on others?

You're in a tricky position now as I personally don't see how you can reverse course on presenting the company this way (after thinking about it for a couple of minutes :) )... but I hope you can figure it out!

Re: Dopamine: An AI platform for designing human behavior

#100

Post by IanCal »

_0ffh wrote: post #84
TimTheTinker wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, all the case studies they list [1] utilized their service to improve users' personal habits -- diet, exercise, etc. Behavior shaping isn't necessarily morally wrong to use, though companies like Facebook and Google are almost completely incentivized to use them against users. [1] http://www.usedopamine.com/assets/pdf/Dopamine%20Labs%20Case...

"Behavior shaping isn't necessarily morally wrong to use," as long as we are talking about parents shaping their children, or the justice system (re-)shaping criminal offenders. Beyond that border, in my mind this becomes very unethical indeed!

Why not people wanting to shape their own behaviour? Nudges to exercise more from an exercise app I've installed is hardly diabolical.
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