Breitbart, other conservative outlets escalate anti-SpaceX campaign • Hacker News Board

Re: Breitbart, other conservative outlets escalate anti-SpaceX campaign

#91

Post by wallace_f » Wed, Nov 01, 2017, 3:38 PM UTC

arethuza wrote: post #42

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Neocons" were the foreign-policy hawks of the 2000s. These guys largely call themselves the "alt-right". They're basically as bad as you've heard, but hiding it sometimes. Even I find this particular turn against SpaceX somewhat weird. My internal model of the alt-right has largely been that they have one wing who are basically Nazi fanfiction, another who idolize the "throne and altar conservatism" of pre-Revolutio…

I've just finished reading "The Shadow World: Inside the Global Arms Trade" , which is a pretty bleak and depressing book - I would guess the US Military-Industrial-Congressional Complex (who the Neocons are basically cheerleaders for) would hate SpaceX as they are trying to undercut existing players and reduce the amount of pork - which is basically what makes the MICC run.

At least it's not like Russia where they have almost all of mainstream government and media in favor of funding weapons operations for foreign human-rights abusing tyrants. It's not even always for foreign policy, but sometimes they even say on their national TV that killing more people is necessary because if they stop, defense jobs will be lost.

Except that's us, right here in the US. It does not matter who wins office in that sense, both parties and mainstream media cheerlead the MIC, Wall St, etc, at the expense of human dignity: https://theintercept.com/2016/09/09/wolf-blitzer-is-worried-...

Re: Breitbart, other conservative outlets escalate anti-SpaceX campaign

#92

Post by Footkerchief » Wed, Nov 01, 2017, 3:39 PM UTC

Cuuugi wrote: post #70

tim333 wrote: post #58

Not that I agree with it but the conservative argument against SpaceX seems to be largely: >Despite the numerous public statements by SpaceX CEO Elon Musk decrying crony capitalism, SpaceX would not exist without government contracts and subsidies. According to The Wall Street Journal, government contracts account for about 70 percent of SpaceX’s contracts. U.S. taxpayers have provided SpaceX more than $5.5 billion i…

Thank you for not falling into the "Conservatives hate science" trap. I can't speak for other people, but my personal issue with Musk's ventures are how much money he funnels from the government.

I've seen this sentiment a lot recently. What's the difference between a) "funneling" and b) using subsidies and bidding for contracts (i.e. using those things the way they're meant to be used)? Do you consider other companies equally guilty of "funneling," e.g. Lockheed, which has about 10x the revenue and an equal if not greater dependence on the US government? http://www.investopedia.com/articles/markets/102715/how-lock...

Re: Breitbart, other conservative outlets escalate anti-SpaceX campaign

#93

Post by strange_quark » Wed, Nov 01, 2017, 3:40 PM UTC

PatientTrades wrote: post #77

Elon Musk has proved again and again that he is a gift from heaven to the human race. We must continue to support genius like him for the sake of humanity. Stop wasting money on endless wars, entitlements, fraud, waste, abuse, etc. Give our tax dollars to people that want to help mankind make a quantum leap forward. Extending life beyond earth is a necessity for the sustainment of humans

Is this supposed to be satire?

Re: Breitbart, other conservative outlets escalate anti-SpaceX campaign

#94

Post by singletonbingle » Wed, Nov 01, 2017, 3:43 PM UTC

tim333 wrote: post #58

Not that I agree with it but the conservative argument against SpaceX seems to be largely: >Despite the numerous public statements by SpaceX CEO Elon Musk decrying crony capitalism, SpaceX would not exist without government contracts and subsidies. According to The Wall Street Journal, government contracts account for about 70 percent of SpaceX’s contracts. U.S. taxpayers have provided SpaceX more than $5.5 billion i…

What about Raytheon, Lockheed Martin and the other major members of the military industrial complex? Many companies get nearly all of their revenue from government contracts.

In any case, they’re getting money in exchange for services or goods rendered to the government. SpaceX can at least claim to have provided a very valuable service, for a very good price.

Compare with programs like the F-35, among many other crimes against the American tax payer.

Re: Breitbart, other conservative outlets escalate anti-SpaceX campaign

#95

Post by brennankreiman » Wed, Nov 01, 2017, 3:46 PM UTC

I recall a congressional hearing where a person from SpaceX stated that Couldn't figure out why ULA rockets cost $422 Million while SpaceX rockets only cost ~$90 Million. Methinks there are some established players pulling their congressional strings. https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/06/air-force-budget-rev...

Re: Breitbart, other conservative outlets escalate anti-SpaceX campaign

#96

Post by Footkerchief » Wed, Nov 01, 2017, 3:46 PM UTC

make3 wrote: post #80

"Musk has given lavishly to politicians, especially Arizona Senator John McCain (R). In return, McCain added Section 1615 to this year's defense authorization bill, which includes language to restrict the military from investing in new launch systems." As much as I love Musk, this is fucked up. Just a normal day in the American democracy I guess

That argument is presented for context in the introduction. The entire rest of the article is about debunking it:

> The central canard of these attacks is that John McCain did not, in fact, add "Section 1615" to the Defense Authorization Act, which is now being finalized by a conference between the House and Senate. This clause does not exist at all in the Senate language. Rather, it was inserted into the House legislation by US Rep. Mike Rogers, a Republican from Alabama.

> Two sources familiar with the legislation told Ars that Rogers added Section 1615 specifically to benefit Aerojet and its AR1 rocket engine.

> "The purpose of the provision is simple," one Washington DC source said. "Instead of the Department of Defense continuing their open-ended, market-friendly risk reduction investment across several providers to enable Russian-engine-free launch capabilities, Rogers wants DOD to fund Aerojet to build AR1 to be inserted into Atlas V." In other words, the language benefits Aerojet by favoring its "drop in" engine solution over building a completely new Vulcan rocket.

Re: Breitbart, other conservative outlets escalate anti-SpaceX campaign

#97

Post by wallace_f » Wed, Nov 01, 2017, 3:49 PM UTC

pjc50 wrote: post #89

Cuuugi wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thank you for not falling into the "Conservatives hate science" trap. I can't speak for other people, but my personal issue with Musk's ventures are how much money he funnels from the government.

Multiple choice question! For its launch capability, the US government should: - buy on the open market at the lowest available price. Currently this turns out to be Russia. - buy on the US market at the lowest available price. This may be SpaceX although other contenders are mentioned in the article - build its own rocket systems from scratch inside government agencies - just pay Boeing/Lockheed like they've always…

There is a fair point to be made that we should be quite critical of how taxpayer dollars are spent. Musk himself even agrees that subsidies lead to cronyism. He has even said himself that subsidies to Tesla should end in favor of a carbon tax, which would be a more just,fair, competitive, and efficient policy tool. Musk and Ron Paul are both actually right about that.

So given that government money spent towards space should be spent fairly and in support of a policy that maintains multiple competitors, these criticisms are a mix of 1) A warranted and necessary critical thought process, 2) likely influenced and supported by some good-old-boy network/industry support for ULA, and 3) opportunistic politics cashing in on a shallow opportunity to get back at a couple of Trump's adversaries like McCain and Musk.

Re: Breitbart, other conservative outlets escalate anti-SpaceX campaign

#98

Post by baldfat » Wed, Nov 01, 2017, 3:49 PM UTC

Cuuugi wrote: post #70

tim333 wrote: post #58

Not that I agree with it but the conservative argument against SpaceX seems to be largely: >Despite the numerous public statements by SpaceX CEO Elon Musk decrying crony capitalism, SpaceX would not exist without government contracts and subsidies. According to The Wall Street Journal, government contracts account for about 70 percent of SpaceX’s contracts. U.S. taxpayers have provided SpaceX more than $5.5 billion i…

Thank you for not falling into the "Conservatives hate science" trap. I can't speak for other people, but my personal issue with Musk's ventures are how much money he funnels from the government.

So they cry "Free Market PRIVATIZE" and now that we have a privatized space program we get this? LOL the hypocrisy is to much.

Re: Breitbart, other conservative outlets escalate anti-SpaceX campaign

#99

Post by hawkice » Wed, Nov 01, 2017, 3:51 PM UTC

singletonbingle wrote: post #94

tim333 wrote: post #58

Not that I agree with it but the conservative argument against SpaceX seems to be largely: >Despite the numerous public statements by SpaceX CEO Elon Musk decrying crony capitalism, SpaceX would not exist without government contracts and subsidies. According to The Wall Street Journal, government contracts account for about 70 percent of SpaceX’s contracts. U.S. taxpayers have provided SpaceX more than $5.5 billion i…

What about Raytheon, Lockheed Martin and the other major members of the military industrial complex? Many companies get nearly all of their revenue from government contracts. In any case, they’re getting money in exchange for services or goods rendered to the government. SpaceX can at least claim to have provided a very valuable service, for a very good price. Compare with programs like the F-35, among many other cri…

So, I think it's pretty common to object to monopolies and crony capitalism with defense contractors too. The what-about-ism seems out of place when you're talking about something _people already constantly complain about_.

Re: Breitbart, other conservative outlets escalate anti-SpaceX campaign

#100

Post by orblivion » Wed, Nov 01, 2017, 3:52 PM UTC

InTheArena wrote: post #83

Ron Paul and Rand Paul identify as libertarians and are as close to libertarian as the (R) party gets. Ron Paul has the added benefit of having wacky neo-nazi roots that he disavowed during the Clinton era. They loathe any sort of government investment. McCain is the only real conservative mentioned here. The alt-right has their true god (Bannon) and their lesser god (Trump). Trump loathes conservatives, and conserva…

The "god" of the alt-right is Richard Spencer. Granted the definition of alt-right has shifted around, but by the current prevailing standard among those who adopt the label and used to do so, I think it is strictly an ethnonationalist movement. Unless you're going to cite rumors about Bannon, I'd say Breitbart doesn't quite qualify. Again, forgetting anything Bannon once said about it being the platform of the alt-right, and going by current running definitions. Breitbart would probably be considered "alt-light".