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Are Hunter-Gatherers The Happiest Humans To Inhabit Earth?

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Re: Are Hunter-Gatherers The Happiest Humans To Inhabit Earth?

#91

Jared Diamond's "The World Before Yesterday" touches on this wrt to the people of Papua New Guinea. These are people who basically lived in hunter-gatherer style until very recently, and have recently started to adopt the "modern" lifestyle. According to him, they do not regret it. Also, the "happy savage" meme has been around for literally centuries, and it's generally been propagated by rich, educated non-savages.

They will regret it some generations later as they swing to the other extreme.

The core point here is too much of anything leads to stress. Living totally like a savage is indeed stressful. Also living a life totally immersed in urban dystopia is equally stressful. A happy medium works, but so few can get and remain there. Our economic systems encourage falling into extremes. They don't encourage stability and moderation.

Re: Are Hunter-Gatherers The Happiest Humans To Inhabit Earth?

#92
post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regardless of how you look at the statistics, modern humans are healthier and live longer on average by every measure

The 1st world at least

no, even in the second (the ex-communist block) and the third (south america, africa, and non aligned countries in general).

Just check one of the Hans Rosling videos on TED[0]: almost everywhere life expectancy has increased, child mortality has dropped, education has risen.

[0] https://www.ted.com/speakers/hans_rosling

Re: Are Hunter-Gatherers The Happiest Humans To Inhabit Earth?

#93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure you know enough to compare the two. Disease, for example, is mostly a product of settled societies, not hunter-gatherers. Crime was a different issue as well, when tribes knew all the members. And sure, tribes had conflicts, but they were often not as violent as the total wars of the last couple centuries. I'm surprised so many people who know nothing except modern society are so quick to make sweeping a…

Homicide rates in hunter gatherer societies are extremely high: https://evolutionistx.wordpress.com/2015/06/08/no-hunter-gat...

This is not a settled question. The references in your link are mostly new-world non-state (nonstate != hunter-gatherer), whereas Africa, where most of human foraging history occurred is under-represented. There are significant differences in environmental constraints and physical and social ecology between these regions.

The link also mischaracterises the argument that anthropologists make: they do not believe that foragers had a fundamentally different ("noble savage in a Marxist feminist garden") character than moderns, but that their incentives and constraints differed. It is hard to find people to war with if you are living at extremely low population density, or to carry out ambush raids along long sightlines in the savannah. You are probably less likely to murder your neighbours' children if they are your nieces, or fail to share food with your brother's wife. Hunter-gatherer social technology exploiting human biases (e.g. toward kin) is often ignored in favour of wishful retrocasting of our own political viewpoints.

Globally, foragers may not have enjoyed the low levels of violence we do in modern society, but they may have been competitive with gardening/agricultural/tribal/state societies for millennia.

Re: Are Hunter-Gatherers The Happiest Humans To Inhabit Earth?

#94
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anthropologists?

You might want to read this: https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2010/11/30/anthroscience You can now study ancient DNA as an alternative method of studying ancient history. It seems there was a lot of killing of males and capturing females leading to population replacement.

aDNA is a complement, not a replacement for ancient history and anthropology.

Re: Are Hunter-Gatherers The Happiest Humans To Inhabit Earth?

#95
post #31

They may be happier, but they are fewer. What good is mean happiness versus sum happiness in the grand scheme of things?

The Repugnant Conclusion may be of interest:

“For any possible population of at least ten billion people, all with a very high quality of life, there must be some much larger imaginable population whose existence, if other things are equal, would be better even though its members have lives that are barely worth living” (Parfit 1984)

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/repugnant-conclusion/

Re: Are Hunter-Gatherers The Happiest Humans To Inhabit Earth?

#96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Homicide rates in hunter gatherer societies are extremely high: https://evolutionistx.wordpress.com/2015/06/08/no-hunter-gat...

This is not a settled question. The references in your link are mostly new-world non-state (nonstate != hunter-gatherer), whereas Africa, where most of human foraging history occurred is under-represented. There are significant differences in environmental constraints and physical and social ecology between these regions. The link also mischaracterises the argument that anthropologists make: they do not believe that…

My understanding is that it's a settled question and that the evidence of extremely high homicide rates in hunter gatherer societies is overwhelming. If you have any links suggesting otherwise, I'd be interested in seeing them.

As for relatedness, that's relative (no pun intended). If everyone within 200 square kilometres is at a genetic distance of a second or third cousin, then a second cousin is the base for a non-relative. In any case, regardless of why precisely it is that violent death is so common pre-modern and especially pre-state societies, it's abundantly clear that it is.

Regarding low population densities, you'll notice that Australian Aborigine tribes are represented in that chart and exhibit murder rates that are far higher than those in modern societies. They do however have the lowest homicide rates among hunter gatherer tribes. The highest homicide rates are found in the Amazon rainforest, where population densities would be highest. So it appears that the two factors that contribute to high homicide rates are pre-state/agricultural society and high population density, and that in the case of the tribes living in the most sparsely populated regions, the inhibiting effect of extremely low population densities on homicide rates does not make up for aggravating effect of living in pre-state societies.

Re: Are Hunter-Gatherers The Happiest Humans To Inhabit Earth?

#97

The only time I'm relaxed and feel happy is when I am out in untamed nature - seeing and hearing nature. It doesn't matter if its just a hike or "working" hard on trail maintenance. If this[1] is true, "Every 2.5 minutes, the American West loses a football field worth of natural area to human development." Walking down the street among human development just doesn't do anything for me, so I quit going outside. It see…

There's also a huge mental cost induced by society. Everything, has to have a purpose, a ROI; everything has a price (even free, it takes space). When you live in nature, you just do as you feel. No reference, no efficiency, it's freeing; and that's a feeling you rarely get in society.

Just to be clear: everything in nature also has a ROI of sorts. I would say people who live in nature are also constrained by their environment and have to be very economical. They depend on their tribe, on the cycle of seasons and the weather, have to be prepared for chance meetings with predators, can't fully prepare for other things like trauma, infection and natural disaster etc.

The closest you can currently get to "doing as you feel", involves moving to Europe and becoming dependent on the socialist state. You can live for free in a flat forever, never have to work, get free health care for every booboo, just hang out all day surrounded by people who do the same thing. I would say this is currently the state of the art in living an unnatural life. And as a result, you might end up being miserable.

But I do sort of understand what you mean; our brains were built for living in natural environments. These impose fairly random and complex constraints, with stress coming in big but short-lived peaks and real family being constantly around.

Living in a concrete jungle and having constant low level stress, doing and eating the exact same things every day, taking pills for every little ill is a recipe for alienation and early death.

Re: Are Hunter-Gatherers The Happiest Humans To Inhabit Earth?

#98
post #85

The main point of the article seems to be that living the present is better than worrying about the future. For me it's just the opposite: I love to think about the future, being better at some sports, learning new things, working on more interesting things. I find the described "cyclical time" perception in the article quite depressing, some kind of never-ending groundhog day.

What you describe as not liking is not living in the present. It's intellectualizing the present.

Re: Are Hunter-Gatherers The Happiest Humans To Inhabit Earth?

#99
post #41

For those not familiar, Ishmael is a philosophical take on the topic: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishmael_(novel) (It’s been mentioned on HN a few times which is how I think I became aware of it.)

Ishmael also deals with other issues. Important issues.

Right now I don't think any truly civilized society would actually generate any garbage. When we solve that issue, we will look at the past (our present) in shame.

Re: Are Hunter-Gatherers The Happiest Humans To Inhabit Earth?

#100
I find articles like this ridiculous. Plenty of things in the modern world is bad for your mental health. Social sites like Facebook, hacker news and so on are constant reminders that you're missing out. You didn't go to a social event last night and you still haven't picked up JavaScript, etc. On top of that research show that people now read comments rather than articles...

It may just be me, but reading comments in general isn't a positive thing in my life. I mean, I enjoy the discussions on HN and often I walk away informed, but the time it takes could've been spent better. I've been here 30 minutes today. That's about how long it takes me to read a scientific article on a subject I'm interested in, and when I do that I typically walk away both informed, inspired and with a few ideas of my own.

Which is the point I want to get to. Not everyone in the west is suffering. There are people who apply their focus to meaningful subjects and have interesting people to discuss them with. There are people who spend their Saturday walking in the forest. There are people who have enough wealth to live healthy lives with large degrees of individual freedom, and lastly there are people who combine all those things and lead truely impactful lives.

I think those people are a lot more happy than hunter gatherers ever were, while also enjoying the fruits of modern technology enabling them to live beyond 35, not seeing half their children die, having easy access to a wealth of knowledge and in generally enjoying unsurpassed freedom.

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