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Cuban Doctors Revolt: ‘You Get Tired of Being a Slave’

nytimes.com

91–100 of 210 posts

Re: Cuban Doctors Revolt: ‘You Get Tired of Being a Slave’

#91
post #11

You know I can't really feel their plight. Take this: >Hundreds of miles away, in Minas Gerais State, Dr. Jiménez, 34, found the work rewarding, but also began to harbor feelings of resentment. “You are trained in Cuba and our education is free, health care is free, but at what price?” she said. “You wind up paying for it your whole life.” Is that not the point? The communist government allows anybody to attend their…

And yet those Cuban doctors would give up their entire way of life, access to family members and the country they grew up in to move to the evil capitalist United States. Weird.

While I'm no fan of Cuba, I have to point out doctors come to the US from a lot of different countries because they'll get paid more. That's just human nature.

Re: Cuban Doctors Revolt: ‘You Get Tired of Being a Slave’

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlikely. Medical degrees from Cuba aren't portable what so ever. Cuban doctors are nowhere close to what Americans expect -- don't get me wrong, they are perfectly fine performing basic medical services but don't expect them to know how to use any modern equipment or be familiar with modern protocols used in the West. What is it far more likely is that those who actually live the glorious communist future would make…

>Medical degrees from Cuba aren't portable what so ever. Cuban doctors are nowhere close to what Americans expect -- don't get me wrong, they are perfectly fine performing basic medical services but don't expect them to know how to use any modern equipment or be familiar with modern protocols used in the West. Haha, what? Look up ELAM. There are ELAM educated doctors living and working in the US today.

This bit from the Wikipedia article on the topic is actually quite interesting:

> In June 2000, a US Congressional Black Caucus (CBC) delegation visited Cuba to meet with Castro. Representative Bennie Thompson (D-Miss.) mentioned to Castro that his district had a shortage of doctors; he responded by offering full scholarships for US nationals from Mississippi at ELAM. Later that same June, in a Washington, D.C. meeting with the CBC, the Cuban Minister of Public Health expanded the offer to all districts represented by the CBC. At a September 2000 speech event at Riverside Church, New York City, Castro publicly announced a further expanded offer which was reported as allowing several hundred places at ELAM for medical students from low-income communities from any part of the USA. Reports of the size of this offer varied in the US press: 250 or 500 places were suggested with perhaps half reserved for African-Americans and half for Hispanics and Native Americans. The ELAM offer to US students was classified as a "cultural exchange" program by the US State Department to avoid the restrictions of the U.S. embargo against Cuba. The first intake of US students into ELAM occurred in spring 2001, with 10 enrolling in the pre-medical program.[5][18][20][21]

> In 2004, the legality of the presence of US students at ELAM was threatened by tightened restrictions against travel to Cuba by US nationals under the administration of President George W. Bush. A CBC campaign led by Representatives Barbara Lee (D-Calif.) and Charles Rangel (D-NY) with 27 other members of Congress persuaded Secretary of State Colin Powell to exempt ELAM from the tightened restrictions.[4]

> Applications from US citizens had been administered through the New York City-based Interreligious Foundation for Community Organization (IFCO), headed by human rights activist and critic of the U.S. embargo of Cuba, the Rev. Lucius Walker Jr.[21]

Re: Cuban Doctors Revolt: ‘You Get Tired of Being a Slave’

#93

You know I can't really feel their plight. Take this: >Hundreds of miles away, in Minas Gerais State, Dr. Jiménez, 34, found the work rewarding, but also began to harbor feelings of resentment. “You are trained in Cuba and our education is free, health care is free, but at what price?” she said. “You wind up paying for it your whole life.” Is that not the point? The communist government allows anybody to attend their…

> Seems weird to come from a country which is explicitly organized around giving everybody a chance to succeed and then upon success saying, yeah but I don't like paying for it. Succeed at what? What success do they gain from being a doctor in a country which prevents them from being rewarded for it? Their returns are fixed by the government, and even when they're working overseas (earning way more money) the governm…

Watch out, this goes against the oh so currently hot narrative that capitalism is bad and the government providing "to each according to his needs" is the silver bullet.

Re: Cuban Doctors Revolt: ‘You Get Tired of Being a Slave’

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weird how they do it after they became doctors and not before.

It's actually weird how many people in capitalist countries look at failed/failing communist states and think of them as utopias, all the while ignoring the plight of millions living there in poverty and with no clear path to a better standard of life. They should put their money where their mouth is and spend at least a few decades in such countries before criticising others who've made a choice to leave(for various…

I am solidly liberal and Left-leaning and most of my friends are extremely liberal and Left-Leaning, too (though, admittedly not extreme left). I don't know a single person who sees any communist state as a utopia or anything approaching utopia. Hell, I don't know anyone who likes communism as a concept any more than a they'd like a state of anarchist primitivism -- basically a quaint idea that might be nice if humans weren't actually human that's interesting to muse about from time to time. Honestly, I think it is a character made up of very few extreme examples that make a spectacle of themselves on social media trotted out by Right-wing pundits and people who don't actually like to think about reality too hard.

Re: Cuban Doctors Revolt: ‘You Get Tired of Being a Slave’

#95

Right now Nazism is rightfully consigned to the trash heap of history and mostly people don't talk about it in polite company. Communism should also undergo the same fate. It probably has the highest body count of any ideology (see Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, Castro ) and is the only ideology where a country built a wall, not keep people from coming in, but to keep people from leaving. It has made millions of people misera…

I somewhat agree, but any connection between Communism and Socialism needs to similarly find its way to that trash heap. Communism's failing is its seemingly inescapable combination with totalitarianism and despotism, which was a significant problem with Nazism as well. It's not the principle that society is responsible for caring for and providing for it's citizens. For too long, we've resisted more socialist policies because those with a vested interest in the status quo were able to paint them as communist.

But Socialism has been successful enough in European countries at this point to be fully differentiated from Communism despite sharing that single principle. In The United States, in particular, there is still a legacy of the 'red scare' that's used to push back against socialist policies that would greatly improve this country and that needs to end too.

Re: Cuban Doctors Revolt: ‘You Get Tired of Being a Slave’

#96

You know I can't really feel their plight. Take this: >Hundreds of miles away, in Minas Gerais State, Dr. Jiménez, 34, found the work rewarding, but also began to harbor feelings of resentment. “You are trained in Cuba and our education is free, health care is free, but at what price?” she said. “You wind up paying for it your whole life.” Is that not the point? The communist government allows anybody to attend their…

Perhaps some amount of repayment for education is reasonable, but not this amount. How many American doctors are paying >75% of their AFTER TAX income to pay down those debts ? None. How many Cuban doctors agreed to the arrangement of being restricted to a country controlled by the Cuban government, and therefore only offered a pittance for their services ? None. They were born there. What would happen if a bank offe…

> if a bank does this and gets convicted (which happens regularly) people WILL go to jail for doing this

thanks for pointing this out; I've heard the term "usury", but have never seen it linked with criminal charges. but a quick web search shows that you're right.

really interesting, and great point regarding the fraction of after-tax payments.

thanks!

Re: Cuban Doctors Revolt: ‘You Get Tired of Being a Slave’

#97
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's possible to critique both systems; the American (capitalist) system in which you need to pay huge amounts for education in order to have the mere chance to get a job that's above sustenace wage, the system screwing over especially those who can't afford to pay back debt; the Cuban system in which your training is free of charge but you cannot apply your skills such that you receive above sustenance wage.…

> the American (capitalist) system in which you need to pay huge amounts for education in order to have the mere chance to get a job that's above sustenace wage You do realize that wasn't true until about 15 years ago, right? You should be asking what happened (hint: it wasn't Capitalism, it was the US Government's inflationary student loan program). Until the mid 1970s when the US Government nearly destroyed the dol…

The very fact that we are talking about student loans, inflation, destroying the dollar and income (wage-labour) means that we are talking about capitalism; though other actors within a capitalist economy by virtue of having more military or property power may influence a capitalist economy, it does not change the fact that it is a capitalist system nevertheless.

Nowhere did I claim that "free market" policies led up to this point, nor did I claim that government intervention didn't lead up to this point. However I did claim it was due to the capitalist mode of production and so far I haven't been refuted on that point.

Re: Cuban Doctors Revolt: ‘You Get Tired of Being a Slave’

#98
post #60

You know I can't really feel their plight. Take this: >Hundreds of miles away, in Minas Gerais State, Dr. Jiménez, 34, found the work rewarding, but also began to harbor feelings of resentment. “You are trained in Cuba and our education is free, health care is free, but at what price?” she said. “You wind up paying for it your whole life.” Is that not the point? The communist government allows anybody to attend their…

Earlier this year I visited Cuba and rented a room from cardiologist and his family. He explained that the results of the Cuban system are mixed. On the one hand, literacy and life expectancy are way up since the revolution. On the other hand, cardiologists need to rent rooms to people like me to afford their simple life. He recognized the deficiencies of their system, but he thought they were outweighed by the benef…

You find this mixed reaction in a lot of former communist countries, both capitalist and communist institutions have a vested interest in maintining a cartoon dichotomy.

Re: Cuban Doctors Revolt: ‘You Get Tired of Being a Slave’

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Seems weird to come from a country which is explicitly organized around giving everybody a chance to succeed and then upon success saying, yeah but I don't like paying for it. Succeed at what? What success do they gain from being a doctor in a country which prevents them from being rewarded for it? Their returns are fixed by the government, and even when they're working overseas (earning way more money) the governm…

Watch out, this goes against the oh so currently hot narrative that capitalism is bad and the government providing "to each according to his needs" is the silver bullet.

Take a picture of a street in Cuba, look at the buildings, the vehicles if it's a nice one.

Every nice thing (or thing that looks like it was once nice) you see in the picture was produced by capital markets; and it looks like the 1940s because because the capital markets stopped functioning in the 1940s.

Re: Cuban Doctors Revolt: ‘You Get Tired of Being a Slave’

#100
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure American doctors would pay down their debt quite quickly if they lived like a Cuban doctor and nearly their entire paycheck went to school loans. Ultimately, if you think it's such a good deal, I'm sure Cuba would let you defect and go to medical school for the opportunity to earn $30/month like she does in Cuba.

I think it's possible to critique both systems; the American (capitalist) system in which you need to pay huge amounts for education in order to have the mere chance to get a job that's above sustenace wage, the system screwing over especially those who can't afford to pay back debt; the Cuban system in which your training is free of charge but you cannot apply your skills such that you receive above sustenance wage.…

American medical system is not capitalist but mercantilist. It's illegal to offer services without explicit permission of the medical guild. It has the exact same effect all historical guild systems had: price gouging and reduced supply. Taxi licenses are another good example.

Capitalist medical system would mean the value of a particular medical certification would be set by the market, ie. everyone would be able to sell medical services. Historically free market has always resulted in a much better quality in addition to lower prices.

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