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Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

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Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#91

Post by _exnk »

klnldknf wrote: post #76
inZGBl wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's probably more personality than anything else. I was always told I was smart and was never motivated. Perfect example: I took the ACT only once because I scored a 30 and it wasn't worth it for me to try to improve that score. Meanwhile, all of my honors & AP class friends took it several times scoring 33s, 34s, & 35s. This was a direct result of my "intelligence complex" and yet I have no trouble learni…

It's probably because the first 80% is really easy to learn so you get all the gratification of "being smart", without ever having to do anything difficult.

It's actually because I tend to be very action-oriented so at some point I get fed up with all of the planning and have to dive in and do something. Then, at a certain point down the road, I realize that the resource requirements (typically time or money) to get to where I want to be are too high so I drop it. I actually get more frustration than gratification out of it.

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#92

Post by Bjartr »

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #55
rtpg wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment lacks a bit of empathy. If someone is trying, even if they fail, that means they are more likely to improve if they receive the right sort of feedback or support. Someone who isn't trying lacks even the basic motivation necessary to try. Instead, if you treat someone who tries and fails the same as someone who doesn't and fails, then there is an incentive for the person to not even try! For your parking…

I lack ALL empathy for me when I am confronted with such a double fine. It was my wrongdoing, so I suck it up and pay up. I, an adult of sound mind and stable finances, occasionally forget to pay parking tickets on time. I am punished by a doubling of the fine. I deserve that punishment by breaking the law a second time, and I pay for that violation of the law by paying the double fine. It sucks but I move on. These…

The strawman here is the ticket & fine argument. Great that you can make an argument for how we should handle them, but it's not a productive argument because the goals of tickets & fines and grades are too different. Tickets & fines have (usually and for the most part, I don't doubt you could find some kind of counterexample) one goal, disincentivize the behavior that was ticketed. Grades serve multiple goals (and not everyone will even agree on the relative priority, and the two I mention are not comprehensive): First to measure attained level of skill, and second to incentiveize improving those skills over time. Both of these serve the higher level goal of actually educating students in a manner that results in them being productive members of society. If we acurately measure that half of all students are not adequately prepared we have failed them. So rather than throw around talk of zero tolerance policies, let's talk about how we might change things so that students will be better prepared for contributing to society, which is not well served by instilling in students a feeling of futility.

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#93

Post by maxerickson »

rm_-rf_slash wrote: post #81
maxerickson wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got a parking ticket for parking on the wrong side of the street during plow season (even days one side, odd the other). I had habitually moved my car on the 31st-1st transition. The judge or magistrate reduced the fine by the maximum amount they could when I explained that I had made a simple error while trying to follow the parking rule.

You proactively took measures to address the ticket in a timely fashion, which is not at all what my comment meant to address. Good on you, though.

I understood it wasn't exactly the scenario you described, it's just that the judge gave me partial credit for trying to park correctly.

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#94

Post by phkahler »

graphitezepp wrote: post #30
phkahler wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Sick now I have something to blame for my chronic lying, thus clearly releasing me from any blame for my own mis-deeds. Umm. Stop trying to place blame on others or yourself. Nothing good can come from that. Results stem from effort, nothing more or less. Learning comes from trying, both success and failure. Understand where you went wrong and aim to do better in the future. When you fail again, rinse and repeat a…

Apologies that was an attempt at humor.

Dammit!! ;-)

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#95

Post by tertius »

charlesdm wrote: post #34
tertius wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grades should be solely based on production. But intelligence without work is useless. Effort should be praised, but not rewarded if it's result did not get anyone further than they were before. Getting all B's is not a very good indicator of anything...

Right. Grades in itself are often also not a good metric. There are plenty of intelligent kids who just skate through school achieving acceptable yet not amazing results, and you have others who have to work really hard to achieve similar results.

I had a B average at school, no need to study except the day before.

This has caused some issues later in life...

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#96

Post by tertius »

rimliu wrote: post #61
tertius wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For children, what makes makes effort into measurable improvement is guidance/teaching.

No amount of teaching will lead to improvement if there is no learning.

No amount of effort, without guidance, will lead to anything either.

It's a combo. And guidance is required for learning.

In the extreme edge cases all the guidance required may be written though, I won't argue against that.

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#97

Post by eevilspock »

rkowalick wrote: post #4

I have been told that praising a kid for effort vs. results is much more important. As a child, I was told I was smart and basically tried to coast as much as possible. I still have a lot of trouble learning how to do something new, especially because I have kind of internalized that I'm good at everything.

Praising results regardless of effort is similar to praising innate ability. So it's in line with the gist of the article.

In any case I’m totally unsurprised by this. Praising innate ability represents an entirely different value system from praising effort.

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#99

Post by Splines »

rkowalick wrote: post #4

I have been told that praising a kid for effort vs. results is much more important. As a child, I was told I was smart and basically tried to coast as much as possible. I still have a lot of trouble learning how to do something new, especially because I have kind of internalized that I'm good at everything.

> I have been told that praising a kid for effort vs. results is much more important.

And yet, our work is completely the opposite. Your boss doesn't care how much effort it took you to do that thing, only that it got done.

Parents inevitably take this approach at home as well. An A is an A is an A. Good marks are what we look for, and are a mental shortcut to know if your child is doing their work at school. But we see this can backfire, as children learn that getting all the answers right on a test are all that matters. Maybe instead our school system needs to instead evaluate relative performance, not absolute performance. A grade should say "Sally improved by 50% this term", and parents can praise that result. The tests that a child takes should adjust to take into account that child's proficiency, to ensure that child is always being challenged.

Aside: Getting all the answers right on a test is also a poor signal - you're essentially clipping the measurement of a child's performance. Kids should be used to failure, and learning how to take on new challenges. Why not give a test where the expected mark is 50%?

Re: Kids Praised for Being Smart Are More Likely to Cheat

#100

Post by pc86 »

lagadu wrote: post #84
xorcist wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Employers are obviously interested in grades that reflect the objective skill level of the to-be-employed. Employers are hardly interested in grades at all. Do you know anyone that does? Society uses grades as a selector for higher education pretty much exclusively. This is a goal for which we can objectively measure its relevance. I suspect there's a thing or two to learn from that.

Pretty much my impression too. My CV doesn't list my grades and I never got a transcript of records from my university because I've never been asked for one, including in my first couple of jobs. Hell in fact I've never even had to prove to an employer that I finished my studies, it's pointless now that I'm an experienced professional in my mid-thirties but I feel that anyone could get away with it too.

If you're in the US, degree verification happens constantly but it's always in the back-end of HR. The folks that don't pass (or have a questionable degree from an institution that may or may not exist) are removed from the process without much fanfare.
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