Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Undercover in a Toronto factory where a temp worker died

projects.thestar.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 140 posts

Re: Undercover in a Toronto factory where a temp worker died

#91

Post by Mikeb85 »

_5ysi wrote: post #40

Having worked at two manufacturers in the Midwest, anecdotally the majority of forklift drivers, line workers on specific lines, and even many white collar office roles were filled by temp agencies. A similar structure existed for engineering too; we would have a problem and the engineering firm with workers under the same roof would develop a solution. For the temp workers the motivation was always very clear and ve…

> I am not sure what a solution is, after all these types of temp companies only exist to skirt existing labor laws, suggesting these laws may defy economics a bit too much.

The solution is to limit the labour pool or, in other words, limiting immigration.

> Pulling back from globalization would, but that is bad economics and bad for national security.

How is it bad economics? And what is your benchmark for success? Are you optimising for GDP, for quality of life, GDP per capita, what?

> Or perhaps we should just continue waiting until the rest of the world develops and the supply of labor finally becomes constrained.

Good luck with that, it'll take 200 years.

Re: Undercover in a Toronto factory where a temp worker died

#92

Post by Mikeb85 »

castle-bravo wrote: post #42
walterbell wrote: post #29

> Fiera’s current clients include some of the continent’s biggest brands including Dunkin’ Donuts and Sobeys; over the years it has made pastries for Costco, Tim Hortons, Metro, Walmart, and Loblaw. Its factories churn out baked goods by the truckload, destined for markets across North America and around the world. They can produce 2 million bagels alone per day. Retail boycotts have been used against clothing sweats…

Consider getting a bread maker: Keurig for bread.

You don't need a bread maker, just learn to make it by hand. It's really quite easy.

Re: Undercover in a Toronto factory where a temp worker died

#93

Post by dsfyu404ed »

frandroid wrote: post #87
dsfyu404ed wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Temp offices should not be allowed to exist. I disagree. Working for a temp agency doing catering, sports venue and whatnot is generally more stable income than working for several places like that directly. Temp agencies work well for industries where demand is variable but predictable. Companies that use temps to fill their baseline staffing requirements to skirt legal/ethical requirements are terrible though.

Catering companies, sports venues, etc. can still have you on-call. The difference between a temp agency and a catering company is that it completely severs the employment relation which protects the workers by law.

Yes, and that's usually worse than getting a fairly predictable number of hours from a temp agency. A temp agency will generally try to avoid asking an employees to be in multiple places at once. It's a pretty simple resource allocation problem.

Re: Undercover in a Toronto factory where a temp worker died

#94

Post by _5ysi »

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #73
_5ysi wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really get this line of thinking, it just seems like a denial of globalization, automation, and economics. Instead of helping the workers it more seeks to punish American capitalists--including all the people like me who hope to retire in the future with investments that grow. When the rest of the world is developed enough that a union could span the entire globe, then this would at least be logical again. As…

That just seems so paternalistic to me. You agree that those low on the totem-pole should have it better but handing them a method of direct-action, to collectively and directly make their work environments better doesn't make sense? >Instead of helping the workers it more seeks to punish American capitalists--including all the people like me who hope to retire in the future with investments that grow. This is actual…

I know I shouldn't be taking the bait but here goes anyway.

Smart union leaders today would be working on organizing and building relationship with peers in other countries. Fighting for US state backed monopolies is fighting on the old battleground with outdated weapons that may be immoral (state enforced monopolies often are).

> That just seems so paternalistic to me. You agree that those low on the totem-pole should have it better but handing them a method of direct-action, to collectively and directly make their work environments better doesn't make sense?

If were going to use the loaded word paternalistic, requiring people to be a union member is more paternalistic than giving them the option. Also I propose policies that (I think) would make work more valuable. Do you think it is fair that the Federal Reserve transfers and additional 2% of workers' pay to capitalists and politicians every year?

> This is actual nonsense. If you don't believe that making the middle and lower class better off is good for an economy, I don't know what to tell you.

Not my belief at all.

Re: Undercover in a Toronto factory where a temp worker died

#95

Post by _5ysi »

Mikeb85 wrote: post #91
_5ysi wrote: post #40

Having worked at two manufacturers in the Midwest, anecdotally the majority of forklift drivers, line workers on specific lines, and even many white collar office roles were filled by temp agencies. A similar structure existed for engineering too; we would have a problem and the engineering firm with workers under the same roof would develop a solution. For the temp workers the motivation was always very clear and ve…

> I am not sure what a solution is, after all these types of temp companies only exist to skirt existing labor laws, suggesting these laws may defy economics a bit too much. The solution is to limit the labour pool or, in other words, limiting immigration. > Pulling back from globalization would, but that is bad economics and bad for national security. How is it bad economics? And what is your benchmark for success?…

Correct, limiting immigration is a solution. While I personally am more favorable toward immigration, I respect people who support Trump's opinion on this. They have a point, the contract between citizens is...between citizens.

Bad economics from the point of view of maximum efficiency of human labor across all humanity.

I was not suggesting we just wait complacently, more lamenting that it seems to be the only not-actively-failing policy idea we have pursued up to this point.

Re: Undercover in a Toronto factory where a temp worker died

#96

Post by jdboyd »

frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #43
_5ysi wrote: post #40

Having worked at two manufacturers in the Midwest, anecdotally the majority of forklift drivers, line workers on specific lines, and even many white collar office roles were filled by temp agencies. A similar structure existed for engineering too; we would have a problem and the engineering firm with workers under the same roof would develop a solution. For the temp workers the motivation was always very clear and ve…

Ending right to work laws and bringing back unions.

How would temp agency workers having collective bargaining with the temp agency (their employer) prevent Fiera from switching to a non-unionized temp agency?

Re: Undercover in a Toronto factory where a temp worker died

#97

Post by Danihan »

Jeremy1026 wrote: post #90

The last letter sent from Fiera to The Star[1] is scathing. Fiera is trying so very hard to play the victim to The Stars mean and "underhanded" tactics to get information about their operations. It probably would have served them better to just remain silent instead of sending this response. [1] http://projects.thestar.com/temp-employment-agencies/letters...

I don't know, I find that letter pretty convincing actually. They seem pissed, but they also make a lot of valid points.

Re: Undercover in a Toronto factory where a temp worker died

#98

Post by frgtpsswrdlame »

_5ysi wrote: post #94
frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That just seems so paternalistic to me. You agree that those low on the totem-pole should have it better but handing them a method of direct-action, to collectively and directly make their work environments better doesn't make sense? >Instead of helping the workers it more seeks to punish American capitalists--including all the people like me who hope to retire in the future with investments that grow. This is actual…

I know I shouldn't be taking the bait but here goes anyway. Smart union leaders today would be working on organizing and building relationship with peers in other countries. Fighting for US state backed monopolies is fighting on the old battleground with outdated weapons that may be immoral (state enforced monopolies often are). > That just seems so paternalistic to me. You agree that those low on the totem-pole shou…

>Smart union leaders today would be working on organizing and building relationship with peers in other countries.

Smart union leaders today are trying to figure out how to end right-to-work so they can actually exist.

>Fighting for US state backed monopolies is fighting on the old battleground with outdated weapons that may be immoral (state enforced monopolies often are).

Minor quibble here - that a monopoly exists and that it exists in the US does not make it backed by the state. Monopolies don't need state backing to exist.

But I also agree that we should dust off Teddy Roosevelt's big stick and use it to smash the monopolies/oligopolies if that helps.

>If were going to use the loaded word paternalistic, requiring people to be a union member is more paternalistic than giving them the option.

Right-to-work is about ending free association, it's odd to paint unions as anti-free association. In an ordinary market environment a widget company could set up an exclusive supply deal with a plastic company where plastic is supplied at a set rate under certain agreements and we'd all be fine with that. But if we switch out "plastic" for "labor" and "plastic company" for "labor union" then suddenly we outlaw it. The idea that you think government should interfere in the contractual dealings of labor-supply in our market but not commodity-supply describes the hypocrisy.

>Also I propose policies that (I think) would make their work more valuable.

That's why I called it paternalism. What you think makes their work more valuable is good but even just giving them the tool to decide what is good for themselves is bad.

>Do you think it is fair that the Federal Reserve transfers and additional 2% of workers' pay to capitalists and politicians every year?

Take your Friedman talking points somewhere else.

>Not my belief at all.

But it's exactly what you described. You think that labor organizing in an effort to gain higher pay will hurt your capital investments.

>I know I shouldn't be taking the bait but here goes anyway.

Me too lol.

Re: Undercover in a Toronto factory where a temp worker died

#99

Post by Mikeb85 »

_5ysi wrote: post #95
Mikeb85 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am not sure what a solution is, after all these types of temp companies only exist to skirt existing labor laws, suggesting these laws may defy economics a bit too much. The solution is to limit the labour pool or, in other words, limiting immigration. > Pulling back from globalization would, but that is bad economics and bad for national security. How is it bad economics? And what is your benchmark for success?…

Correct, limiting immigration is a solution. While I personally am more favorable toward immigration, I respect people who support Trump's opinion on this. They have a point, the contract between citizens is...between citizens. Bad economics from the point of view of maximum efficiency of human labor across all humanity. I was not suggesting we just wait complacently, more lamenting that it seems to be the only not-a…

> Bad economics from the point of view of maximum efficiency of human labor across all humanity.

Only if you think of humanity as a labour pool. Immigration hurts developing countries as it siphons away labour and especially educated labour, preventing their development... If the goal is economic parity across nations, you help the development of other countries through investment, not by taking their workers.

Re: Undercover in a Toronto factory where a temp worker died

#100

Post by otakucode »

_5ysi wrote: post #40

Having worked at two manufacturers in the Midwest, anecdotally the majority of forklift drivers, line workers on specific lines, and even many white collar office roles were filled by temp agencies. A similar structure existed for engineering too; we would have a problem and the engineering firm with workers under the same roof would develop a solution. For the temp workers the motivation was always very clear and ve…

The solution is simple. Criminal prosecution of the executives of the company, coupled with treating white collar crime the same way we treat street crime.
Post reply on HN