If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers (2004) • Hacker News Board

Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers (2004)

#91

Post by rapind » Thu, Sep 07, 2017, 2:11 PM UTC

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #66

sgift wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be pretty cool if programmers could show their day job programs the way a carpenter can say "I build this" and people could look at it to see its quality. Unfortunately, this is often not possible.

Shouldn't have to. Should be able to talk intelligently about what you do and that should be enough. If I write SW that interacts with RFID readers, I should be able to talk about the various protocols. I should be able to talk about poll vs push and the benefits (and pains) of both. I should be able to talk about how to architect a performant system that gets the data from the devices, processes it and sends it on t…

I once wrote some software that needed to interact with RFID readers. I couldn't talk about protocols then and I still can't today, but the program is still running just fine 10 years later.

Don't underestimate the value of some general understanding / intuition of how systems will probably work combined with a little googling.

Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers (2004)

#92

Post by rapind » Thu, Sep 07, 2017, 2:17 PM UTC

imgabe wrote: post #28

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How often can a carpenter really do this? What if most of his clients won't allow him to take pictures? And certainly most won't allow strangers to come in and fondle the furniture.

It's not uncommon for a contractor or architect to take pictures of a building after it's completed to use in their marketing material. It's pretty standard unless the client requests that they don't.

The client in these cases likely don't consider the architecture / product to be a critical competitive advantage.

On the occasion that they do (super efficient manufacturing plant), the same rules would apply.

TLDR; The carpenter analogy is horrible.

Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers (2004)

#93

Post by program_whiz » Thu, Sep 07, 2017, 2:18 PM UTC

Technical interview: Interviewer: Ok, so you have only 4 boards here and two nails, can you figure out a way to make a standing pyramid that won't fall over?

Carpenter: Will I be building pyramids or is there a limit to how many nails we'll have during construction?

Interviewer: No, but we want to assess your critical thinking skills.

Carpenter: (Arranges Pyramid) Ok, I think its done.

Interviewer: Hm... ok well it was kinda slow, but I guess you did ok. Alright, next question. You have 100 boards, for every one that is fir, say "Fir", and for everyone that is Birch say "Birch", and for any that are both "Fir" and "Birch"...

Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers (2004)

#94

Post by jacurtis » Thu, Sep 07, 2017, 2:21 PM UTC

program_whiz wrote: post #93

Technical interview: Interviewer: Ok, so you have only 4 boards here and two nails, can you figure out a way to make a standing pyramid that won't fall over? Carpenter: Will I be building pyramids or is there a limit to how many nails we'll have during construction? Interviewer: No, but we want to assess your critical thinking skills. Carpenter: (Arranges Pyramid) Ok, I think its done. Interviewer: Hm... ok well it w…

This is what I was expecting the article to be about when I read the title.

Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers (2004)

#95

Post by martijn_himself » Thu, Sep 07, 2017, 2:28 PM UTC

mightybyte wrote: post #90

martijn_himself wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree reality is probably more subtle that this, but I do feel that there is too much emphasis on public repositories in application processes. It's probably more common for recent graduates to have public repositories than for the majority of senior devs. Then again I'm sure there are other pressures graduates have to deal with that senior devs don't.

I don't know what kind of emphasis you've seen, but being able to look at a public example of code a person has written is IMO the single biggest risk reducer available to a company hiring developers (well, other than actually having worked directly with the person before, which is an order of magnitude or two less common) because it gives me a picture of performance on real world software. Hiring is substantially ab…

I suppose that is fair enough, and I don't think there is anything wrong with it being one of the ways in which companies assess potential candidates.

From my recent experience (and anecdotal evidence) it seemed it was becoming a deal breaker for companies but maybe I reached that conclusion too quickly.

Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers (2004)

#96

Post by martijn_himself » Thu, Sep 07, 2017, 2:33 PM UTC

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #66

sgift wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be pretty cool if programmers could show their day job programs the way a carpenter can say "I build this" and people could look at it to see its quality. Unfortunately, this is often not possible.

Shouldn't have to. Should be able to talk intelligently about what you do and that should be enough. If I write SW that interacts with RFID readers, I should be able to talk about the various protocols. I should be able to talk about poll vs push and the benefits (and pains) of both. I should be able to talk about how to architect a performant system that gets the data from the devices, processes it and sends it on t…

I agree. I also read somewhere that talking about past behaviors (e.g. how you solved a complex issue) is the best indicator for competency (I can't back that up with sources sorry).

On a side note I also worked with RFID readers, they were yesteryear's Internet of Things :).

Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers (2004)

#97

Post by wiredfool » Thu, Sep 07, 2017, 2:33 PM UTC

JustSomeNobody wrote: post #23

sgift wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It would be pretty cool if programmers could show their day job programs the way a carpenter can say "I build this" and people could look at it to see its quality. Unfortunately, this is often not possible.

How often can a carpenter really do this? What if most of his clients won't allow him to take pictures? And certainly most won't allow strangers to come in and fondle the furniture.

Few years back, had a knock on the door. Dude was there, said that he built our staircase, and could he take a couple pictures. It was a massive open log staircase, it was pretty cool. Filled us in on where the wood was from (local).

It was strange, but that happens there.

Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers (2004)

#98

Post by falcolas » Thu, Sep 07, 2017, 2:36 PM UTC

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #88

falcolas wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, exactly this. The parent is describing a general contractor, not a carpenter. Even general contractors tend to subcontract out the specialized stuff, like designing the house, installing computerized gear, etc. A carpenter knows enough to know not to try and do the electrical work, because he'll probably do it wrong.

You're supposed to know the job above yours. You don't have to be capable or qualified to do it, but you need to be familiar with it. So yes, I am somewhat describing a general contractor, but not really. A GC both knows and manages the work. A good construction worker generally knows what is going on and can pitch in and help (given the appropriate supervision) when needed. Or put it this way: good construction work…

> Really bad construction workers are [...] obsessed with trivial bullshit that makes no difference to anything

That describes bad employees in general. And if we bring this back around to programming, I'd absolutely expect a back end developer to know a bit about the front end, and the design, and the architecture (and help out if needed).

Here's the key difference: "[A carpenter would] never touch an electrical box or plumb out a system." Software companies, in contrast, routinely expect front end developers to design (because it's all just CSS rules), to write backends (it's the same language), and to deploy in an easily scalable fashion (because "serverless"). That is where the expectations differ.

Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers (2004)

#99

Post by teetermld » Thu, Sep 07, 2017, 2:38 PM UTC

Or you're contracted to build a house and in the middle of development they want a skyscraper.

Re: If Carpenters Were Hired Like Programmers (2004)

#100

Post by cpburns2009 » Thu, Sep 07, 2017, 2:43 PM UTC

XaspR8d wrote: post #87

TremendousJudge wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the thing is, you have to use a rock if you want it to run on the browser

Hey, at least the browser rock is smooth nowadays. 10 years ago you would've sliced your hand open just picking it up.

But now the smooth rock is hard to grip and deflects off of the nail too easily and you still scratch your hands or smash your fingers. Not to mention that each smooth rock is shaped slightly differently. When you get your technique down with one rock and try the nail with the other rock you're just back to smashing your fingers. And don't get me started on the million and one rock and nail toolkits.