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Voynich manuscript: the solution?

the-tls.co.uk

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Re: Voynich manuscript: the solution?

#91
post #20

Other than declaring that the solution is obvious to a self-declared expert such as himself, the author (Nicholas Gibbs) doesn't appear to give any proof of his theory. So far I can can find online, this piece is the only thing he has ever published about the Voynich manuscript: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22nicholas+gibbs%22+voynich Who is Nicholas Gibbs? Does anyone besides Nicholas Gibbs trust his opinion on these…

The Daily Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-4861262/Exper...) has a few more details:

"...one British academic claims..."

"Nicholas Gibbs, who is an expert on medieval medical manuscripts,...."

"Mr Gibbs, who claims to be a professional history researcher..."

Re: Voynich manuscript: the solution?

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Imagine an alphabet similar to Arabic where each letter may have up to five glyphs, or even an alphabet in which the _position_ of the glyph changes it's letter. But we don't have to imagine a random alphabet which Voynich might have been written in. We can look at the actual language in the manuscript. It often shows three or four Latin-like glyphs repeated. Unless you have access to some special way these symbols a…

I do agree that the repeated glyphs and almost-repeated "words" are a big red flag against "can this actually mean anything?", and I'm not sure the idea of abbreviations really explains that. However, many medieval documents even in known real languages do contain almost undifferentiated glyphs one after the other: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minim_(palaeography) Not quite the same, but something similar might conc…

Well, I believe what article was saying was the text was shorthand for a sequence of actions - repeated letters implied repeated actions. In this case, sequences herbal infusions, bathing, magnets, etc.

IE, there's no text to translate, it's not an abbreviation for any standard text.

Re: Voynich manuscript: the solution?

#93
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand it, Voynich has a too low information content to be an alphabetic (or -- a fortiori -- logographic or syllabic) representation of a human language. If true then it is almost certainly not 'real writing'. The videos are an impressive phonological reconstruction, but I predict (based on the assumption that the math isn't lying), that it would be effectively impossible to get much beyond ad-hoc phonetic…

> As I understand it, Voynich has a too low information content to be an alphabetic (or -- a fortiori -- logographic or syllabic) representation of a human language. If true then it is almost certainly not 'real writing'. That is an extraordinarily European viewpoint, where alphabets have a few tens of glyphs, each representing a single letter (or, in the case of capital letters, two glyphs per letter). Imagine an al…

Several years ago, while I was at UT Austin, a guy from Google (Their Translate team? Sorry, I don't remember his name.) came and gave a talk on Voynich.

The punch line of one of his stories came while he was discussing the history of attempts to interpret it. One character had a dense theory that involved, as a step in the middle, involved the text being an anagram. The problem being that anagramming destroys information and, given a large enough text, is impossible to reverse. (Interestingly, this is why some 17th-18th century scientists who were obsessed with both secrecy and precedence published their results in anagram form---if someone later came along and published the same result, they could say, "See, I was first; here's what that gibberish means.")

My point being that if you're going to posit an "out-there" theory, you have to make sure your theory can get you back here.

For a short text, you may have a point, but for a text as large as the Voynich, information content is a pretty reasonable way to examine what's going on. The number of characters (as far as I know (http://www.voynich.nu/transcr.html)) is within the range of alphabetic writing. (Alphabets have To have more bits per character, the document would have to have more different characters. To pack more bits in via position, for example, would be possible, but you can't go crazy with the idea because you still need to be able to decrypt it. (Hangul is a neat example; it's alphabetic, but written with the letters arranged into blocks representing syllables. Neat!)

Re: Voynich manuscript: the solution?

#94

Like, is everyone ignoring the picture at the top of the article? That looks like a pretty believable direct translation of the ligatures to me. I know its not the whole thing, but it is plausibly consistent. That image is titled p16_Gibbs1.jpg. To me that hints that the author is serious and is planning to release a detailed paper. His final statement at the end of the article is really bold. "Not only is the manusc…

http://www.voynich.nu/writing.html

Re: Voynich manuscript: the solution?

#95
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand it, Voynich has a too low information content to be an alphabetic (or -- a fortiori -- logographic or syllabic) representation of a human language. If true then it is almost certainly not 'real writing'. The videos are an impressive phonological reconstruction, but I predict (based on the assumption that the math isn't lying), that it would be effectively impossible to get much beyond ad-hoc phonetic…

> As I understand it, Voynich has a too low information content to be an alphabetic (or -- a fortiori -- logographic or syllabic) representation of a human language. If true then it is almost certainly not 'real writing'. That is an extraordinarily European viewpoint, where alphabets have a few tens of glyphs, each representing a single letter (or, in the case of capital letters, two glyphs per letter). Imagine an al…

> That is an extraordinarily European viewpoint

It is not at all, you misunderstand the point.

It is the technique that codebreakers used to check whether something is linguistic or not. And it is rather consistent across all languages. The 'Alphabet size' of a string might vary (i.e. logographic languages have much higher symbolic vocabulary sizes, so different per-symbol information content), but that doesn't affect the overall information density, because those symbols also take more information to encode. I haven't done the analysis myself, but as I understand it, Voynich is way way outside the range of normal human languages, European or otherwise.

And raising the issue of logographic or syllabic systems, is a point I made (did you not understand they are your examples). Even if one argued (as some have done) that the symbols in Voynich are logographic or syllabic, that would make it even lower information density, even further from human language.

I'm sorry I wasn't clear, but this stuff is very well-established in the Voynich literature. It puts genuine constraints over what the language can contain. It doesn't mean it's gibberish, but it is very unlikely to be 'real writing' derived from any known language, extant or extinct. Crucially, if it is real writing, it is of a form so dramatically different to anything we've ever seen before (i.e. fundamentally different syntactic and semantic structures), that one suspects the kind of correspondence translation techniques in the videos will be futile.

Re: Voynich manuscript: the solution?

#96
post #83
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I understand it, Voynich has a too low information content to be an alphabetic (or -- a fortiori -- logographic or syllabic) representation of a human language. If true then it is almost certainly not 'real writing'. The videos are an impressive phonological reconstruction, but I predict (based on the assumption that the math isn't lying), that it would be effectively impossible to get much beyond ad-hoc phonetic…

Wouldn't abbreviations (a kind of compression) actually increase the apparent information density of the text? Or have I breathtakingly misunderstood something utterly fundamental?

Yes, Good point. Highly reduced vocabulary and a reduced domain push in the other direction.
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