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Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

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Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#91

Post by mattnewton »

peoplewindow wrote: post #49
strictnein wrote: post #34

The unredacted details still feel like they're missing something: https://web.archive.org/web/20170821212745/https://github.co... "...Rod’s first action was to apologize to a contributor who had been repeatedly moderated. Rod did not discuss the issue with other members of the CTC/TSC first. The result undermined the moderation process as it was occurring" "Rod did not moderate himself when asked by another foundatio…

I'm scan reading the article and don't see what's so inflammatory about it either. It's about the problem of campus censorship and lack of free speech in universities. It starts by suggesting that Isaac Newton would have been pushed out of modern universities, if zapped forward in time, due to his mental issues and eccentric beliefs about non-gravity related topics. Then it goes on to argue that there's a thing calle…

Honestly, I think Damore was roughly handing a much bigger nerve with a far more authoritative tone and a bigger name attached to his views. The potential (or extant) harm here is much less clear to me.

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#92

Post by mattnewton »

geofft wrote: post #8
mattnewton wrote: post #2

I missed all this, what did rvagg do? Why are some people upset enough to try to vote him off the island, and leave when it didn't happen?

https://github.com/nodejs/community-committee/issues/111 has a screenshot of the text previously in https://github.com/nodejs/TSC/issues/310 because "listing the issues was not fair to Rod". I'm an outsider to this, but it seems to me that the tl;dr was that he was basically undermining the moderation actions of the TSC and CTC.

Seems like an administrative issue then, and one that the administrative processes should be able to sort out. Or is there clear and present danger to the community's reputation?

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#93

Post by curtisblaine »

geofft wrote: post #76
curtisblaine wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is a clause written on the CoC itself. The CoC must be respected because the CoC says so. Anyone who has doubts about the CoC, must be expelled from the TSC, because it's written on the CoC. This ensures that the CoC can't be touched ever. A good example of catch-22. They shouldn't have approved it in the first place.

> They shouldn't have approved it in the first place. I agree with this argument - if the TSC does not intend to uphold the CoC, they should either not have approved it or should have made someone else the contact point (and given them meaningful enforcement power). > Anyone who has doubts about the CoC, must be expelled from the TSC, because it's written on the CoC. This ensures that the CoC can't be touched ever. I…

> Nothing in the CoC says that it's a CoC violation to want to get rid of the CoC

Wait, they just tried to expel a guy because he was subtly criticizing the CoC on twitter.

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#94

Post by chc »

fixermark wrote: post #13
syshum wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems he committed the cardinal sin of expressing support for Free Speech and questioning some aspects of Codes of Conduct. One can not even question the codes of conduct, they are written on stone and are beyond criticism and questioning...

... or he committed the cardinal sin of questioning the Code of Conduct, and when challenged on it, responding with snark and condescension, demonstrating the need in the community for a Code of Conduct.

Are you referring to the tweet where he said that threatening to literally defecate on his computer wasn't a reasonable or proportionate response? Was that the "snark and condescension," or did I miss another one where he was actually rude?

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#95

Post by curtisblaine »

gedy wrote: post #64

Maybe we should fork Node again? While not Node.js per se, npm 5 was a poor quality rollout, and maybe the folks working on both are too distracted with the... not-technical?

Everyone seems too distracted with the non-technical. It's not about code anymore. It's about endless politics and virtue-signalling.

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#96

Post by geofft »

curtisblaine wrote: post #93
geofft wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They shouldn't have approved it in the first place. I agree with this argument - if the TSC does not intend to uphold the CoC, they should either not have approved it or should have made someone else the contact point (and given them meaningful enforcement power). > Anyone who has doubts about the CoC, must be expelled from the TSC, because it's written on the CoC. This ensures that the CoC can't be touched ever. I…

> Nothing in the CoC says that it's a CoC violation to want to get rid of the CoC Wait, they just tried to expel a guy because he was subtly criticizing the CoC on twitter.

1. If I'm understanding correctly (and maybe I'm not!), the criticism of the CoC was not seen as a CoC violation, it was seen as incompatible with the duty of enforcing the CoC. (That is, the situation would have been very different from if a project member not on the TSC were criticizing the CoC.) There were, I think, other actions from the same person that were claimed to be CoC violations, and I don't know enough to have an opinion on whether those claims are accurate. But I don't think the act of criticizing the CoC was ever even claimed to be one.

2. Even if it were, that would still only be a claim about this particular guy's approach to criticizing the CoC.

3. Even if it were a claim about all criticisms of the CoC, the vote failed. As far as I can tell, the scenario in reality is exactly the scenario you wish: someone on the TSC criticized the CoC, the TSC votes that this is totally fine.

(If you are now additionally arguing that TSC members should be barred from resigning from the TSC and then critiquing the decision on their private blog once no longer affiliated from the TSC, well, that does not seem like the pro-free-speech position.)

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#97

Post by geofft »

LyndsySimon wrote: post #86
cosmiccartel wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It looks like the responsibilities of the TSC involve much more than enforcing a code of conduct. If you want a simile for this situation, I'd say it's more like a police officer sharing an article that's in favor of marijuana legalization, and being upset when his coworkers attack him over it.

> I'd say it's more like a police officer sharing an article that's in favor of marijuana legalization, and being upset when his coworkers attack him over it. ... but sharing such an article would not be wrong ... Is the disconnect really this large between ideologies?

Hm, I interpreted 'cosmiccartel as saying that sharing such an article would be fine, and therefore that a more appropriate analogy would lead to the opposite of my conclusion. (And I upvoted that reply because I felt it contributed to the conversation usefully and was a meaningful rebuttal.)

That said, I still think there are scenarios where sharing such an article would be, although not wrong in a moral sense, certainly something that would displease your coworkers and harm your group's effectiveness: imagine that a large number of your coworkers thought that marijuana was a serious problem in their society and had made it one of your team's priorities to eliminate marijuana from the community. If your coworkers don't believe that you'll have their back, or if they worry that you'll undermine them if they leave a prisoner with you or something, it's entirely reasonable for them to be unhappy at you, whether or not they're "right". And it's entirely predictable that a more fruitful way to achieve your goal would be to leave the department and argue your case through political means, instead of remaining.

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#98

Post by true_religion »

ebola1717 wrote: post #75
curtisblaine wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is a clause written on the CoC itself. The CoC must be respected because the CoC says so. Anyone who has doubts about the CoC, must be expelled from the TSC, because it's written on the CoC. This ensures that the CoC can't be touched ever. A good example of catch-22. They shouldn't have approved it in the first place.

> The CoC must be respected because the CoC says so. That's... how laws and rules work...

Actually, no. You can follow the laws but still publicly critize them in most democratic countries.

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#99

Post by smsm42 »

peoplewindow wrote: post #85
ebola1717 wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, this article comes from another TSC member, meaning one of his peers. If 4 of your 12 peers resign because you weren't removed, there is almost certainly some merit to these complaints.

Why not judge merit directly, yourself? As far as I can tell there is no merit to the complaints. If 4 members stepped down, that suggests Node TSC has a serious problem with people who are wildly extreme. Here's what appears to have happened based on the original complaint: 1. This guy tweets an article that discusses campus speech codes, university politics and so on. It doesn't attack anyone and is a fairly long-w…

Please tell me that nodejs didn't just have a vote on removing a member because the said member shared an article which was critical of speech codes and implied CoCs can have downsides. And 40% voted for removal. Please tell me it was something more serious and controversial. Because if that's what we arrived at - that the mere implication that you might not be 100% devoted to the orthodoxy, that you might be considering committing a thoughtcrime and questioning the dogma - not denying yet, not even arguing, just thinking about questioning! - you already in serious danger of being ostracized. This is scary as hell.

Re: Effective immediately I am stepping down from the Nodejs TSC

#100

Post by [deleted] »

fixermark wrote: post #79
strictnein wrote: post #34

The unredacted details still feel like they're missing something: https://web.archive.org/web/20170821212745/https://github.co... "...Rod’s first action was to apologize to a contributor who had been repeatedly moderated. Rod did not discuss the issue with other members of the CTC/TSC first. The result undermined the moderation process as it was occurring" "Rod did not moderate himself when asked by another foundatio…

Of everything in there, this one is probably the most problematic. """ His tweeting of screen captures of immature responses suggests pleasure at having upset members of the JavaScript community and others. As a perceived leader, such behavior reflects poorly on the project. https://twitter.com/rvagg/status/887790865766268928 """

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