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The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

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Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#91

Post by observation »

mbroncano wrote: post #68
summer_steven wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your making the classic mistake of equating the top 10% European countries like Switzerland and Sweden with the entire United States . Midwestern states, Washington state, and New England have cohesion. Correct your perspective and see that the United States and Europe are fairly equal. Example: Italy has next to no cohesion.

> Italy has next to no cohesion References? In my personal experience that's far for accurate. If anything they are an extremely nationalistic country. Living half way between the US and the EU has taught me otherwise - that the kind of cohesion between say Portugal and Sweden is surprisingly solid - once you know where to look e.g. social values, political views. Trying to do the same with someone from deep Texas an…

> References? In my personal experience that's far for accurate. If anything they are an extremely nationalistic country.

Turkey is a nation that is even more nationalistic and they have very serious trust issues with their fellow citizens.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#93

Post by pdonis »

ergothus wrote: post #58
pdwetz wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I follow his thought process on why "through the growth of individualism and personal experience that makes cooperation impossible." On a simple personal level, I'm for individualism and cooperation, so I'm not seeing the inherent conflict. Perhaps it's a matter of definitions?

The American culture values individualism...and also has a strong "you can't tell me what to do!" reaction to social pressure. If those points are connected, I can easily see too much individualism interfering with cooperation even if the base ideas are not in conflict. Evidence: who are the heroes in american TV and movies? The rebel against authority, the one that breaks the rules. Lethal Weapon, Die Hard, House, I…

> who are the heroes in american TV and movies? The rebel against authority, the one that breaks the rules. Lethal Weapon, Die Hard, House

All of these heroes cooperated with close friends, colleagues, and other people in order to solve problems and achieve goals.

The difference is not individualism vs. cooperation. The difference is cooperation based on the voluntary choices of individuals, as needed to accomplish goals, vs. cooperation dictated from the top by someone's ideology.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#94

Post by pdonis »

Animats wrote: post #34
PoachedSausage wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The best sports and social clubs I've been a member of generally try to avoid too many political games although they are nominally democratic. Club politics is generally tiresome, few people join a tennis club or hackerspace to play politics, they want to play tennis or make things.

"The trouble with socialism is that it takes up too many evenings." -Wilde That's the problem with democracy. It's hard work.

> That's the problem with democracy. It's hard work.

I think that misses the point. The problem is not hard work, but rather hard work dictated by a preconceived belief that a one-size-fits-all collective solution is the best approach to all problems.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#95

Post by tasty_freeze »

tomohawk wrote: post #72

Cooperation used to be by free association through civic organizations. As the government has grown in scope, it has eclipsed these, and it really isn't surprising that civic society has declined as a result. When people freely participate in civic activities, they are being generous. There is no coercion. When government does the same thing, it is coercive. The activity does not occur unless taxes are collected. Cho…

If there is a massive hail storm and my neighbor's roof is damaged and needs to be repaired, the reason all the neighbors don't pitch in and give him a new roof is insurance, not the government. You know, free market insurance. The part of your story about people pitching in has more to do with the skill sets of people back then vs now; even with all the desire in the world, I couldn't raise a barn.

And in the case of hurricanes, yes, the government does step in because even insurance companies can't afford that scale of loss. And if you look at the aftermath of things like Hurricane Katrina, yes, there was a lot of community involvement in coping with the losses.

There was more than enough misery to go around 100 years ago, and heaven help you if you weren't a member of the in-group. I'd much rather have the government help me out than having to pretend to be a member of the church, or whatever was required to be acceptable in such communities.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#96

Post by specialist »

tomohawk wrote: post #72

Cooperation used to be by free association through civic organizations. As the government has grown in scope, it has eclipsed these, and it really isn't surprising that civic society has declined as a result. When people freely participate in civic activities, they are being generous. There is no coercion. When government does the same thing, it is coercive. The activity does not occur unless taxes are collected. Cho…

Rise of "hot" media (radio, TV, social), decline of civility. Utterly unoriginal observation (McLuhan, Postman, many others).

While it lacks the satisfying simplicity of your government has a monopoly on violence, err, banality worldview, it does have some basis in objective reality.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#97

Post by [deleted] »

themacguffinman wrote: post #87
tomohawk wrote: post #72

Cooperation used to be by free association through civic organizations. As the government has grown in scope, it has eclipsed these, and it really isn't surprising that civic society has declined as a result. When people freely participate in civic activities, they are being generous. There is no coercion. When government does the same thing, it is coercive. The activity does not occur unless taxes are collected. Cho…

That must be why citizens of other countries like Australia and the UK are awfully uncooperative and uncharitable, right? /s I also hate this idea that helping the poor should be left to personal whim. "Programs that solve problems" sounds more effective and egalitarian than "people helping people" if you ask me.

[deleted]

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#98

Post by specialist »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #53
tardygrad wrote: post #35

This was touched upon heavily in the book 'The Righteous Mind' by Jonathan Haidt, an amazing book if you're interested in this sort of thing and part of Bill Gate's reading list where I first found it. This quote (by Bertrand Russell) stood out: "Social cohesion is a necessity, and mankind has never yet succeeded in enforcing cohesion by merely rational arguments. Every community is exposed to two opposite dangers: o…

I disagree. It seems to be that collectivism, ironically, has made cooperation impossible rather than individualism. The government has taken on the role of "taking care" of your neighbor, so everyone stopped. Government guarantees you healthcare and income in retirement, so there's no need to have a family big enough to take care of you. And as the kid, your parents are taken care of, so your role is diminished. Whe…

Bah. I've lived on a farm, in the city, in the burbs. People are people where ever you go. If you're not neighborly, that's your problem, not the government's.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#99

Post by coliveira »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #53
tardygrad wrote: post #35

This was touched upon heavily in the book 'The Righteous Mind' by Jonathan Haidt, an amazing book if you're interested in this sort of thing and part of Bill Gate's reading list where I first found it. This quote (by Bertrand Russell) stood out: "Social cohesion is a necessity, and mankind has never yet succeeded in enforcing cohesion by merely rational arguments. Every community is exposed to two opposite dangers: o…

I disagree. It seems to be that collectivism, ironically, has made cooperation impossible rather than individualism. The government has taken on the role of "taking care" of your neighbor, so everyone stopped. Government guarantees you healthcare and income in retirement, so there's no need to have a family big enough to take care of you. And as the kid, your parents are taken care of, so your role is diminished. Whe…

That's nonsense. If that was the case, European countries would have a lower level of social cohesion, which is just the opposite. American society is far more individualistic, and still there is very little in terms of social support for poor people and disaster relief, for example.

Re: The Strange Disappearance of Cooperation in America (2013)

#100

Post by tcbawo »

Bucephalus355 wrote: post #86
tomohawk wrote: post #72

Cooperation used to be by free association through civic organizations. As the government has grown in scope, it has eclipsed these, and it really isn't surprising that civic society has declined as a result. When people freely participate in civic activities, they are being generous. There is no coercion. When government does the same thing, it is coercive. The activity does not occur unless taxes are collected. Cho…

Your point is well written but you seem to be referencing some past golden age of inter-person cooperation before "big government" got involved. I'm not saying your wrong but anytime our thoughts lead us to imagine the past as a place wth less problems, it's a good clue we're maybe thinking about the situation less well than we could. In your mind, when you imagine the 1920's, or the 1960's, do you think that there w…

I don't buy the golden age of giving scenario either, but it seems there was an era where people had more time (single income households), more disposable income, less pressure to save for education, retirement, medical expenses, etc.

My parents tell a story about how in the 1950's, my grandfather built his house himself. One day after work, he came to the site and his neighbors were at work helping out on it. Of course, he was an immigrant living in a relatively homogeneous ethnic community. So, maybe small communities took care of their own, but in the post-drug, post-industrial economy small communities aren't diverse enough to handle the load.

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