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Feeling bad about feeling bad can make you feel worse

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Re: Feeling bad about feeling bad can make you feel worse

#91

Post by jnty »

This effect is at the root of homesickness, I think. In my experience you're never really homesick when you're happy - homesickness only happens when you're sad for some reason and you can't separate it from the place/situation you're in. That reason is only sometimes a direct result of that situation, but your instinctive response is to think "this would be better if I were at home" regardless.

Getting over homesickness seems to be about being able to accept the bad thoughts as you would do at home and move on, rather than "feeling bad about feeling bad" in the form of wishing you could just go home.

I'm fortunate enough to have never experienced it, but I imagine serious grieving is like this too.

Re: Feeling bad about feeling bad can make you feel worse

#92

Post by 3131s »

rtpg wrote: post #87
3131s wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women have the same instinctive reaction to attractive men though. I do agree everyone should be aware of how attractiveness can influence their perception of another person, but I don't feel guilty about noticing whether a woman is attractive or not and I definitely am not going to make a futile attempt to prevent it.

We live in a society where this issue affects women way more than it does men (see Clinton getting lectured at about not constantly smiling). Bringing this up is part of a fight to reduce systemic bias.

I get that and generally agree. I am more challenging the idea of feeling bad / guilty about sexual attraction, which I interpreted as being implied by some of the other comments in this thread.

Re: Feeling bad about feeling bad can make you feel worse

#93

Post by larkery »

lisper wrote: post #68
Zyst wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually go the completely opposite way, and I'm the happiest person I know. I own everything, everything that happens to me, everything that goes wrong around me, I take my share of responsibility in it. Analyze what I can do to improve it, and do it. When I think like what you mentioned I tend to lose control of my emotions, I feel angrier, I feel sadder. When I own what happens to me, I feel peace. I know almost…

> I own everything, everything that happens to me Really? Everything that happens to you? What if you were mugged? I think you can (and should) take responsibility for what you do (or don't do), but I don't think you can (or should) take responsibility for what you feel because you don't have control over that.

In zen there is the question, who is in control of these feelings? Where is the locus of control, and what kind of a thing is it?

Where is the boundary between things inside your mind and things outside of your mind? Where does control get inserted into the process of things arising and falling away?

One way of thinking about this produces a realisation that nobody is in control, but nobody has been denied or robbed of control either. Instead, the idea of control appears to be a kind of misapplied concept.

I think this is a realistic interpretation of the evidence which does not lead to a depressive fugue, but only when it's absorbed beyond a textual description (a bit like how reading a program is different to running one, in HN-friendly terms).

Re: Feeling bad about feeling bad can make you feel worse

#94

Post by Boothroid »

rtpg wrote: post #69
davidreiss wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is it annoying? Who told you that you need to feel bad?

By having those sorts of thoughts, you are privileging that aspect of them over any other sort of accomplishments they might have. They have less opportunity to present themselves in the way they would like to. Imagine if everyone around you in your workplace would think about how you're dressed instead of what you're actually trying to talk to them about.

I think you are arguing for denial of a fundamental aspect of human nature.

Re: Feeling bad about feeling bad can make you feel worse

#95

Post by Boothroid »

rtpg wrote: post #87
3131s wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Women have the same instinctive reaction to attractive men though. I do agree everyone should be aware of how attractiveness can influence their perception of another person, but I don't feel guilty about noticing whether a woman is attractive or not and I definitely am not going to make a futile attempt to prevent it.

We live in a society where this issue affects women way more than it does men (see Clinton getting lectured at about not constantly smiling). Bringing this up is part of a fight to reduce systemic bias.

I think you are arguing against biology.

Re: Feeling bad about feeling bad can make you feel worse

#96

Post by westmeal »

notgood wrote: post #51
jrs95 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too late...I don't even know what level I'm in anymore. Hopefully this will stop before I experience a depression stack overflow.

Jokes on you, at 2 levels I already overflowed. I would buy more emotional DDR memory for myself but the human body is closed hardware with no extra slots available.

There's a slot in the back but it unfortunately isn't backwards compatible.

Re: Feeling bad about feeling bad can make you feel worse

#97

Post by thinkfurther »

Zyst wrote: post #47
lisper wrote: post #30

Something I wish my parents had told me when I was growing up: You, the thing listening to this advice, is just a small part of a greater whole, much of which you (the thing listening to this advice) are not consciously aware of. This is because you were built by your genes to be good mainly at one thing: reproducing. That's all your genes care about. They don't care about your happiness or achievements or having a f…

I actually go the completely opposite way, and I'm the happiest person I know. I own everything, everything that happens to me, everything that goes wrong around me, I take my share of responsibility in it. Analyze what I can do to improve it, and do it. When I think like what you mentioned I tend to lose control of my emotions, I feel angrier, I feel sadder. When I own what happens to me, I feel peace. I know almost…

This helped me a great deal with people. That is, I kept falling in love with "narcissists" (probably not fully fledged, but bad enough) and then cried about how they treated me, tried to show them how wrong they are, and all that. But I always found something where I gave them power, and people who didn't allow their borders to be violated, always rolled their eyes and wondered what I even saw in them. Narcissists and their prey do play a game with each other, no doubt in my mind about it. I don't accept blame for how others treated me, but for that I let myself be treated that way, if that makes sense.

But I also lost someone very close to me in a totally pointless accident, like a flower pot falling on their head. There is no responsibility to accept there, just sadness. That's okay, a growing opportunity even, but still no blessing. So I don't fully subscribe to it -- it helps with people, but not completely with life.

Re: Feeling bad about feeling bad can make you feel worse

#98

Post by thinkfurther »

larkery wrote: post #93
lisper wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I own everything, everything that happens to me Really? Everything that happens to you? What if you were mugged? I think you can (and should) take responsibility for what you do (or don't do), but I don't think you can (or should) take responsibility for what you feel because you don't have control over that.

In zen there is the question, who is in control of these feelings? Where is the locus of control, and what kind of a thing is it? Where is the boundary between things inside your mind and things outside of your mind? Where does control get inserted into the process of things arising and falling away? One way of thinking about this produces a realisation that nobody is in control, but nobody has been denied or robbed…

> In zen there is the question, who is in control of these feelings? Where is the locus of control, and what kind of a thing is it?

> The exterior things touch the soul in no way. They have no access to it and neither can change the mood of the soul nor move it. Rather it gives itself its mood and movement, and according to its judgements that it makes about its own dignity, it also values the exterior objects higher or lower.

-- Marcus Aurelius

Re: Feeling bad about feeling bad can make you feel worse

#99

Post by Boothroid »

vanderreeah wrote: post #67
Banthum wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Radical feminist, or hyper-devout Christian? I can't even conclusively tell the difference any more.

Or perhaps someone who doesn't want their valuation of other human beings to be solely based on criteria which are instilled by a mixture of: a) a centuries-long ingrained conception of women as possessions and b) (if you insist) evolutionary priorities.

And yet when we select partners evidence shows that most people look for the conventional attributes i.e. fertility in women, and status in men. Arguing against what seems to be a critical part of what we are seems bonkers.

Re: Feeling bad about feeling bad can make you feel worse

#100

Post by Boothroid »

naasking wrote: post #82
lisper wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I own everything, everything that happens to me Really? Everything that happens to you? What if you were mugged? I think you can (and should) take responsibility for what you do (or don't do), but I don't think you can (or should) take responsibility for what you feel because you don't have control over that.

> Really? Everything that happens to you? What if you were mugged? You take ownership of how you respond to every situation. Things happen to you beyond your control, but you can be in control of how you handle and internalize it if you practice. Not being able to control your feelings is false for the most part. Giving up the sense of control over self and one's circumstances is well known to have depressive and dem…

But your own mind is not completely within your own control, I would argue.
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