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Do I really have to cite an arXiv paper?

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Re: Do I really have to cite an arXiv paper?

#91

>“Do I really have to cite arXiv papers?”, they whine. “Come on, they’re not even published!,” they exclaim. Is this really a thing? I understood that today you even city web pages (with a time stamp) and even your dog.

Yes, this is a thing. The existence of a citation format isn't a blanket endorsement of its use in all ways in a scientific work. For example, in linguistics I could cite a specific usage example from a (non peer-reviewed) webpage. On the other hand I wouldn't want to cite a (non-peer reviewed) webpage that outlines a specific linguistic theory.

Re: Do I really have to cite an arXiv paper?

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Five years ago (during my PhD) I would not have been "allowed" to cite a paper which has not been peer-reviewed and published in the proceedings of a recognised conference. Papers on arXiv where specifically black-listed. Mentioning Wikipedia (even off the record, in personal meetings) would have been the start of fast road to the bottom.

Even during my masters I have always felt that it was not done or at least questionable to cite wikipedia. However, wikipedia is often an excellent source for a first read on a new topic. The next step should then be to read wikipedia's sources, and slowly expand your view on the subject. However, sometimes it happens that you read first about a topic on wikipedia, and worked something out on the information you foun…

> However, sometimes it happens that you read first about a topic on wikipedia, and worked something out on the information you found there, before you had time to consult wikipedia's sources. In this case you definitely should cite wikipedia.

I was advised to always cite the primary source, even if I learnt of something in a secondary source, eg. lit review or Wikipedia. The reason being that if the reader wants to follow up on it, it's the quickest path. I'd say it's also just good practice to credit the original authors for their work.

Citing Wikipedia also puts the reader in the uncomfortable position of either taking your word for something, or having to go through Wikipedia's sources themselves to verify something.

Re: Do I really have to cite an arXiv paper?

#93
post #89

I don't see how this is even a question. A paper "published" to arXiv is published, in the more general sense of the word. Just because it isn't "journal published" doesn't change anything.

Publishing in a (reputable) journal generally means some degree of peer review. While noisy, this process generally means that really outrageous methodological errors or theoretical claims get weeded out. For a good paper, it means that other researchers have pressed them on specific aspects of the work, which often produces stronger work (new methods, better baselines, clearer argumentation, clearer math). I adore a…

> While noisy, this process generally means that really outrageous methodological errors or theoretical claims get weeded out.

There is a fair amount of evidence that this isn't true. In general, most statistics in scientific research aren't done by statisticians, and there are whole classes of methodological errors that are regularly not caught because the "peers" have the same lack of statistical education as the people whose papers they are reviewing.

Re: Do I really have to cite an arXiv paper?

#94
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even during my masters I have always felt that it was not done or at least questionable to cite wikipedia. However, wikipedia is often an excellent source for a first read on a new topic. The next step should then be to read wikipedia's sources, and slowly expand your view on the subject. However, sometimes it happens that you read first about a topic on wikipedia, and worked something out on the information you foun…

> However, sometimes it happens that you read first about a topic on wikipedia, and worked something out on the information you found there, before you had time to consult wikipedia's sources. In this case you definitely should cite wikipedia. I was advised to always cite the primary source, even if I learnt of something in a secondary source, eg. lit review or Wikipedia. The reason being that if the reader wants to…

> Citing Wikipedia also puts the reader in the uncomfortable position of either taking your word for something, or having to go through Wikipedia's sources themselves to verify something.

How does this differ from citing anything else?

Re: Do I really have to cite an arXiv paper?

#95
post #58
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This dissonance seems to come from the fact that citing has two purposes 1. Assigning credit to where you heard about something. 2. Giving a claim (the best possible, and sufficiently strong) support. From the credit perspective you should cite wherever you heard something, even if it was alleyway graffiti. From the support perspective, you should take the idea you read on the wall look it up to see if someone credib…

When publishing a paper/book with a certain publisher there is an interaction between the prestige of the publisher and the prestige of the author: An author publishing with prestigious publishers is considered prestigous; a publisher that publishes prestigous authors is considered prestigous. Since publishers are commercial entities, their prestige is an asset they want to protect. So there are other incentives at p…

AKA why the academic journal industry is bullshit.

Re: Do I really have to cite an arXiv paper?

#96
post #89

I don't see how this is even a question. A paper "published" to arXiv is published, in the more general sense of the word. Just because it isn't "journal published" doesn't change anything.

Publishing in a (reputable) journal generally means some degree of peer review. While noisy, this process generally means that really outrageous methodological errors or theoretical claims get weeded out. For a good paper, it means that other researchers have pressed them on specific aspects of the work, which often produces stronger work (new methods, better baselines, clearer argumentation, clearer math). I adore a…

While noisy, this process generally means that really outrageous methodological errors or theoretical claims get weeded out. For a good paper, it means that other researchers have pressed them on specific aspects of the work, which often produces stronger work (new methods, better baselines, clearer argumentation, clearer math).

I see that as all true, but irrelevant in this context. If you source material from a pre-print on arXiv, then you should cite it. Seems totally obvious to me. Of course you would prefer the final, published paper if it's available. But that wasn't the question at hand.

And even with all that said... I would argue that in some fields, (cs / ml / etc.) we're getting close to a point where arXiv itself is become almost a parallel publishing mechanism where people cite/publish completely within the arXiv realm, with less regard for "traditional" journals and what-not in general. Especially when you factor in papers from researchers who come from industry, as opposed to academia, and care less about some of the normal trappings of academic publishing.

I adore arXiv but still believe it's a preprint.

Of course it's a pre-print. I didn't contend otherwise. I'm just saying that, from my perspective, it's obvious that you should cite a pre-print if it's relevant.

I will allow though, that norms probably vary from field to field, and as a non-academic, my take is likely different from, say, somebody who is deeply immersed in academia, pursuing tenure, etc.

Re: Do I really have to cite an arXiv paper?

#97
What if somebody independently came to similar or worse results and only then read about the research - with possibly more results - made before that?

Given the amount of information available, it could often be the case of independent research into something which is known and available for some time. If one only learns about similar - and possibly greater - results after making one's own, and wants to talk about the work done - should one cite other, possibly earlier, works?

Re: Do I really have to cite an arXiv paper?

#98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I started my PhD I was even told not to cite book, regardless of their footprint in the field. They are/were regarded as some sort of "common knowledge". Many ideas come from such works, but one cannot cite them and must, instead, cite a previous work (which surely got their (base)ideas from the same books...). What I'm saying here is that the "academic code of conduct" is a bit outdated.

Again, it depends on the purpose of the citation. I believe no-one would have a problem with e.g. "To solve this discretized Poisson equation we use the BiCGStab method \cite{vanLeersPaperAboutBiCGStab}, which is an iterative Krylov method; see \cite{SaadsTextbook} for a general introduction."

exactly. all this talk of reputation, authority, credit, etc.

the bibliography is an important part of your work. its there to help an interested reader understand your work more fully by placing it in context, providing more access to a more exhaustive discussion of the finer points, and to assist in their studies of related topics.

at some level thats what it has to be about.

Re: Do I really have to cite an arXiv paper?

#99
post #2

Agree with this: if you take an idea from somewhere, cite it. There’s no cost to you personally or professionally for doing so, and you’re giving credit where it is due. >A large number of seminal works have never been published. The greatest mathematics paper of our lifetimes remains unpublished. Is this a reference to a specific paper?

Author here: Grisha Perelman's proof of the Poincaré conjecture has never been (by him, to my knowledge) submitted to or published in any journal. He decided, as is his right, that he could not care less about the professional community of publishing mathematicians or their protocols. Does not invalidate his achievement. I should note, since I am not and do not expect to be the level of mathematician that Perelman is…

https://arxiv.org/abs/math/0211159

https://arxiv.org/abs/math/0303109

https://arxiv.org/abs/math/0307245

Re: Do I really have to cite an arXiv paper?

#100
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However, sometimes it happens that you read first about a topic on wikipedia, and worked something out on the information you found there, before you had time to consult wikipedia's sources. In this case you definitely should cite wikipedia. I was advised to always cite the primary source, even if I learnt of something in a secondary source, eg. lit review or Wikipedia. The reason being that if the reader wants to…

> Citing Wikipedia also puts the reader in the uncomfortable position of either taking your word for something, or having to go through Wikipedia's sources themselves to verify something. How does this differ from citing anything else?

The problem is that Wikipedia is a secondary source. If I cite wikipedia you need to go through the reference list in the end of the article to find the primary source for the fact that I cited. If I had instead cited that source directly you wouldn't need to go through this extra step.
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