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How Much Are People Making from the Sharing Economy?

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Re: How Much Are People Making from the Sharing Economy?

#91

Post by jclulow »

csmark wrote: post #80
jclulow wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least the partially covered mortgage on a domicile might lead to increased equity in an asset with some long term retained, or even increasing, value. The car financing case seems much more dubious.

Partially covered mortgage means the bank will eventually foreclose. They take the house and, zero out the equity the owner may have, and take any asset value increase and pocket it all.

I meant partially covered by the rent you are able to charge. When I moved away from the house I had bought, I rented it out for a number of years. The rent I was able to charge covered about 90% of the payments, and I put the rest in from my salary. I sold the house a few years later after it had appreciated somewhat, and it was overall a good deal.

I could imagine a similar situation with Airbnb instead of traditional lease arrangements, assuming the numbers line up. My point was more that I can't see it working out that way with an asset like a car.

Re: How Much Are People Making from the Sharing Economy?

#92

Post by dalbasal »

jahaja wrote: post #88
dalbasal wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suppose we disagree, somewhat. In my view/experience labour movements have generally pursued job stability as a primary instrument (for worker rights), even if it was not formally a goal in itself. This may be somewhat at odds with solidarity, but every movement deals with some internal contradiction. There a multiple reasons for the focus on permanent employment. One is the labour union history of labour movements…

I'm not sure why your definition of labour movement is so local rather than national/global? It seems like a strange premise to your whole reply. Causal employment doesn't have to mean worse worker rights. We don't seem to disagree that much, I'm just questioning that you think it's the top priority. I'm surprised by your bike delivery claim because I've recently seen exactly the opposite; the organizing of strikes i…

I'm not sure what the dynamic is in Germany, but here (Ireland), the subtext to such demands would almost certainly be upgrading these delivery people to permanent employee status.

The way the law (much of it case law and labour court conventions) works currently is that arrangements similar to permanent employment are considered permanent employment, with all rights. If a company wants to keep it's "contractors'" status and avoid inadvertently picking up the responsibilities of a permanent employer, they need to avoid treating them like employees. Controlling hours, workflow and such (employee freedom) falls into that category. Providing sick pay, reimbursements, holiday pay and such also fall into that category.

Again, I don't know for sure this is an issue right now in germany, but I suspect it is. Intentionally or not, agreeing to this request/demand would weaken deliveroo's case that these are not "employees." It would set up a general ruling that effectively considers the whole employment model (which is technically not employment) unlawful.

What I'm suggesting is: (1) we find a new name/category for these employees, (2) remove the defacto laws that cause contractors to default to permanent employees when/if you treat them like employees (3) legislate new rights that are relevant to this category. These must be realistic about preserving the casualness of the arrangement.

Re: How Much Are People Making from the Sharing Economy?

#93

Post by aantix »

myroon5 wrote: post #35
aantix wrote: post #26

For larger income Lyft/Uber drivers (probably those in SF/NYC), is it common to setup an S-Corp? Or you could setup an LLC with S-Corp accounting.. With such a low average earning, they could basically pay FICA on the first 20%, but take the rest as a dividend distribution and avoid those taxes. Would save them about an extra 18(?)% on taxes for the cost of a CPA & S-Corp filing (probably about $1800/yr). EDIT: Looks…

Can dividends be issued at-will? Or are they restricted to being quarterly / pre-planned / etc.?

Since you'd be the only owner of the S-Corp, according to my CPA, they can be issued at-will (you don't need to hold a meeting with yourself).

I just transfer from the business account to the personal account and mark the transaction as a "DIVIDEND". My CPA takes care of the rest.

Re: How Much Are People Making from the Sharing Economy?

#94

Post by tommynicholas »

nickthemagicman wrote: post #38
tommynicholas wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The somewhat optimistic view of these "gigs" is that they have two important qualities: - They can be picked up/put down at any time - They require no specific time commitment and can be managed in parallel with other money making endeavors/jobs Most "jobs" are actually difficult to get (go try to get a job as a waiter - you probably need to know someone), require a very specific time commitment, and if you decide yo…

The problem is less with the qualities of the job and more with the pay of the job. It's poverty wages and exploitative. It's not profiting off these people, it's profiteering off of them.

My biggest problem with Uber/Lyft is how the costs are incredibly obscure to the driver. I think that sucks. With Postmates, for example, a friend of mine was making $15 - $20 an hour riding his bike. That's ok money! Especially given the characteristics of the job I mentioned above. If he'd been driving a car, it's not really ok money.

I'm eyes wide open about the downsides of many of these jobs, especially the ones that involve using your own car. I just want to mention the upside because it's important. It has helped a really save a few of my friends butts at really tough times in their lives. I don't want to lose site of that. Optionality is important.

Re: How Much Are People Making from the Sharing Economy?

#95

Post by KaiserPro »

michaelt wrote: post #82
KaiserPro wrote: post #57

In the UK at least, the "sharing" economy is basically a way of paying employees less. There are two types of employment, contracted employees (that is employees that are directly employed by a company) and "self employed" (where the employee creates a single person company, which the employer then contracts) the reason why "self employed" is popular amongst the gig employers is not because its "flexible" its because…

not because its "flexible" its because its cheap. "Flexible" means the same things as "cheap" for any company where the workload is hard to predict. Maybe I work for a food delivery company, and order levels will depend on how a local sports team does, or something like that. Let's say there's a 33% chance I'll need 4 workers, a 33% chance I'll need 5 workers, and a 33% chance I'll need 6 workers. If I have hourly-pa…

Zero hours contracts are not the same as self employed.

It is perfectly possible to have non self-employed employees on zero hours contracts, with holiday pay, sick pay, pension and maternity.

However, its more expensive, because you have to pay more NI and pro-rata holiday pay.

Re: How Much Are People Making from the Sharing Economy?

#96

Post by KaiserPro »

bko wrote: post #79
KaiserPro wrote: post #57

In the UK at least, the "sharing" economy is basically a way of paying employees less. There are two types of employment, contracted employees (that is employees that are directly employed by a company) and "self employed" (where the employee creates a single person company, which the employer then contracts) the reason why "self employed" is popular amongst the gig employers is not because its "flexible" its because…

Employers can't be forced to hire workers, so I don't think "worker's rights" is the right term. What restrictions to employment such as holidays, sick pay and maternity care actually mean is that workers are unable to negotiate on those grounds. For instance, if a single female in her early 30s is interviewing for a position, she is unable to tell waive her right to maternity care by telling her employer that she do…

Ok, in the UK workers rights, are well rights.

At no point was I suggesting that employers are forced to hire workers. I'm talking about the right to a safe, equal workplace.

You are assuming in a wonderfully cute and naive way, that the power balance between employer and employee is equal. It is not and has never been. In the UK literally thousands of people have died for workers rights.

I suggest you try quitting your current job, loosing all your money and becoming a taxi driver, living paycheck to paycheck.

then we can have a talk about negotiating.

Also, your hypothetical basically negotiates away a fundamental human right in the UK/EU, to suggest that its a tool for negotiating is pretty abhorrent.

Re: How Much Are People Making from the Sharing Economy?

#97

Post by KaiserPro »

Ntrails wrote: post #74
KaiserPro wrote: post #57

In the UK at least, the "sharing" economy is basically a way of paying employees less. There are two types of employment, contracted employees (that is employees that are directly employed by a company) and "self employed" (where the employee creates a single person company, which the employer then contracts) the reason why "self employed" is popular amongst the gig employers is not because its "flexible" its because…

> Basically the sharing economy in the UK (with the exception of airBnB) is a way of undermining works rights to save money. AirBnB definitely still counts here, if the charge is dodging tax/regulatory costs. A high proportion of offerings are either intentionally or unknowingly avoiding the various restrictions and/or costs associated with running a short term let business. It's not just workers rights, it's the soc…

Point taken, In my argument I wanted to seperate individuals avoiding tax, and buisnesses deliberatly undermining rights.

Also, people who do AirBnB, have an asset, unlike gig workers, so at least they have something to negotiate with.

Re: How Much Are People Making from the Sharing Economy?

#98

Post by mrisoli »

Finnucane wrote: post #9

If you're charging money, that's not really sharing. It's not really surprising that airbnb hosts make more money, since some people are buying houses just to rent out the rooms like a flophouse. Can you do that with Uber (one user manage a fleet of cars? It would seem not worth the effort.)

I'm pretty sure it's possible and being done(especially in developing countries).

If I'm not mistaken Uber itself was cutting deals with dealerships in some markets to help drivers finance cars loans and insurance, so Uber itself would be managing the fleet of cars in some way.

Re: How Much Are People Making from the Sharing Economy?

#99

Post by mrisoli »

jaclaz wrote: post #89

I cannot understand the putting all together in a basket. AirBnB revenue is essentially "return on investment" and very little "labour" (you have paid the house/apartment/room you are offering, the maintenance, cleaning and laundry work is connected to just a trifling part of the income). Uber, Lyft, and similar is half and half (you have to buy a car AND put hours of work in the service) Fiver and similar is ONLY wo…

I think they observed the wrong people.

AirBnB's supply comes from property owners, not hospitality employees(i.e. hotel workers).

Uber, Lyft, Postmates and similar supply comes from driver and courier time spent on the platform, not cars, cars/bikes are suppliers tools, unlike Airbnb renters, the suppliers of cars are not necessarily the Uber drivers here, the comparison would be fairer if they compared fleet managers revenue to Airbnb property owners'.

Re: How Much Are People Making from the Sharing Economy?

#100

Post by Shikadi »

nostrademons wrote: post #32
frgtpsswrdlame wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think those low cost drivers, if they even think about it, believe they're more than covering their marginal costs. They idea that they're essentially paying depreciation plus a small premium to themselves would not go over well if it were more apparent. Perhaps what we need is another anti-ride-sharing calculator where you can plug in a whole bunch of details about your car and insurance, normal driving habits and…

The car's going to depreciate whether you drive for Uber or not. Most car owners treat the car as a sunk cost that you need to live in America today, and figure they might as well earn some extra money if they have to pay that cost anyway. I really doubt there are many people going out there and buying cars just so they can drive for Uber.

That's problematic thinking, putting more miles on a car wears it out faster. Sunk cost or not, say you drive twice as much because you're an Uber driver, you will now have to perform maintenance and repairs twice as often, give or take based on differences in driving and whether or not the car starts cold every time. Maybe the numbers work out, but ignoring them probably doesn't make sense, especially if you drive a car that is known to be on the less reliable side.
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