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Analog Computers

blog.degruyter.com

91–100 of 107 posts

Re: Analog Computers

#91
post #7

The author's so called analog computers can be built by using FPGAs. And the term he might be reaching for is called data-flow programming.

The author's so called analog computers Why do you say "so-called"? can be built by using FPGAs. Also, FPAA's (Field Programmable Analog Array)[1] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field-programmable_analog_arra...

Yeah I remember reading the chatter about FPAA's back in the 90's.

It seemed like an exciting idea, but it never took off perhaps because the kind of accuracy that makes it worthwhile was not achievable?

Re: Analog Computers

#92

So, Keith Emerson's Moog Synthesizer[0] was an analog computer, yes? [0] http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03593/emerson6_3...

It sure is. As are all analog modular synths. Its just that the "problems" worked on by such analog computers are ...different.

Re: Analog Computers

#93

The author certainly has a point, but I wonder if analog computers (in the sense of DA/AD + ICs that can be plugged into general purpose systems) suffer from economies of scale? Maybe energy + depreciation costs of general purpose computers are still lower than ordering a minimum of 10~100k units of some custom analog computer w/ good enough quality control. Apparently something similar to FPGA exists for analog sign…

I got some FPAA chips I assume you're referring to, the ones I've got are Anadigm ones, I need to get round to using them. The downside is the ones I've got, simply make use of switched capacitors for creation of filters, so there will be some form of discretization in the temporal domain I guess.

Re: Analog Computers

#94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One thing fascinating by "analog computers" is the way they seem to be practically instantaneous regardless of n. That is perhaps part of the efficiency reflected in the article. If this were true, it would have profound implications. It's probably not true. http://www.scottaaronson.com/papers/npcomplete.pdf

It's "true". The catch is that the analog computer's circuit size (which is analog to the digital computer's time) has to scale with n.

But it's not true - the interesting components (the op amps, multipliers, etc) all have bandwidth limitations.

Re: Analog Computers

#95
> Luckily, with today’s electronic technology it is possible to build integrated circuits containing not only the basic computing elements but also a crossbar that can be programmed from an attached digital computer, thus eliminating the rat’s nest of wires altogether.

This is the most important paragraph in the entire article.

Analog Computers can be made very small. It'd take an ASIC, but the 741 OpAmp was less than 100 transistors. A more modern OpAmp might be under 1000 transistors... although noise issues would be abound.

Bernd Ulmann has developed a methodology that performs non-trivial computations (such as: http://analogparadigm.com/downloads/alpaca_4.pdf), but its still hand-programmed by connecting wires together.

If it were digitally programmed with a digital crossbar switch (consisting of CMOS Analog Gates instead), then it'd be controllable by a real computer.

I think what Ulmann is arguing here... is to use analog computers as a "differential equation accelerator". Perform a lot of computations in the digital world, but if you need to simulate a differential equation, then simulate it on an analog circuit instead.

And there are a large number of interesting mathematical problems that are described as differential equations.

-----------------

The main issues, as far as I can see, would be the multiplier, logarithm, and exponential functions. IIRC, these are created using a bipolar transistor... and modern manufacturing doesn't really mix BJT with MOSFET.

I mean, IGBT transistors exist, but modern computers are basically MOSFET all the way down. MOSFETs would be able to make a lot of things though: digital potentiometers / variable resistors... the crossbar switch, capacitors, resistors, and OpAmps.

And all of those can simulate addition, subtraction, derivatives and integrals. More than enough to build a "differential equation accelerator" that the author proposes.

Re: Analog Computers

#96
post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're for example an archer you can "calculate" angles and velocities to a pretty high precision.

I agree, but I don't think it is "calculated" in decimal places (if the makes sense). Sort of like how slide rules didn't give you "decimal precision".

Decimal places are just a convenient shorthand for describing the rough order of magnitude of the available precision. "Three decimal places" means roughly 30dB or 0.1%.

Slide rules absolutely give you decimal places. A decent slide rule might give you three decimal places of accuracy. A really good one might give you six decimal places, or 0.0001%, or 60dB. You could more precisely quantify their accuracy than just a rough order of magnitude, so perhaps the accuracy would be 55dB or 62dB, but "decimal places" gives you a sufficiently good idea of the accuracy for most purposes.

To bring it back to the digital comparison, a really great slide rule that's accurate to six decimal places is equivalent to a digital computer with 20 bits of output. If you put in a ton of work building an incredibly precise slide rule you might be able to add another order of magnitude and get seven decimal places. On the digital side, you'd only need to add 3 or 4 more bits to match that improvement.

Re: Analog Computers

#97

>The human brain is a great example – its processing power is estimated at about 38 petaflops, about two-fifths of that of TaihuLight. Huh? So we now have computers more powerful than the human brain? I thought that was still some decades off. And how would one even measure such a thing? In the apples-to-apples comparison, a stupid human trick floating-point calculation savant might manage 1 flop/s.

I recall checking a few years ago, and it would have taken about 40,000 high-end GPUs to match the common estimates of the computing power of the brain. It's no doubt much lower now.

The problem is that it takes far more than raw computing power to make AI. We have sufficient computing power but we don't know how to use it, not even close.

As for how it's measured, it's basically a matter of guesstimating the computing power of a single neuron based on its inputs, outputs, and the computation it appears to do to map between them, and then multiplying by the number of neurons in the brain. This is horribly imprecise so estimates vary a lot (describing it as "38" gives the estimate way too much credit, should probably say 10 or 100 instead) but they're probably in the very rough ballpark.

Re: Analog Computers

#98

So, Keith Emerson's Moog Synthesizer[0] was an analog computer, yes? [0] http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/03593/emerson6_3...

I was going to speak on this as the pictures look just like my Eurorack. The module I have called Maths does all the arithmetic functions needed.

Re: Analog Computers

#99
post #90
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it usually refers to accuracy out of a range of 1. typically 3 decimal places means 1000ppm and 4dp means 100ppm. The typical problems with analog computers are many... precision of components (e.g. gain or attenuation) is limited to ~0.1% for resistors and ~1% for capacitors (inductors aren't typically used). You can try to tune things (ratiometrically) to get higher accuracy, but at the cost of increased no…

A big technical EE problem for analog computers is interconnects and their EMI/EMC interference issues and impedance issues. The analog specs for on-chip digital circuitry are much more relaxing to develop around. You can work around the interconnect issues on analog computers by dumping lots of power into the driver and input circuits but eventually some joker is going to point out that it would be electrically chea…

I always hear such things from EE's. So, what's your thoughts on stuff like this in terms of analog "always" being more expensive or power hungry:

http://www.cisl.columbia.edu/grads/gcowan/vlsianalog.pdf

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.325...

Now, I won't argue with cheaper to develop since analog is manual with a lot of issues to contend with. I'm just wondering if there are more applications that can get huge speedups at lower power or cost than digital. I know the ASIC makers in power-sensitive spaces are already moving parts of their chips to analog for power reduction. That's what mixed-signal people tell me anyway: the specifics are often secret. So, I have to dig into CompSci looking for what they've tried.

Re: Analog Computers

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I seem to recall there were clever but well-known techniques in analog to get higher accuracy than that of your actual components, through negative feedback IIRC. So why is it correct to say that the precision of the components is what limits output precision? Wouldn't the technique potentially make a difference? (and yeah I know accuracy != precision but I'm using them loosely... the distinction doesn't seem relevan…

I haven't thought it through, but feedback lets you do a few (perhaps connected?) things: 1. explore a trade-off between gain and bandwidth, 2. Reject disturbances and nonlinearities. So you could have a high gain but "low precision" (in the sense of deviating from an ideal, not in the sense of not being noisy) component, and through feedback you can make a low gain, high precision (having desired properties, not low…

"I haven't thought it through"

I don't know the math of such things but did take a stab at it. My idea was doing something similar as we do for high or unlimited precision on digital computers. They usually emulate the higher precision using a series of lower-precision, primitive operations. My thought was that you could probably implement higher precision in analog if you could do a similar emulator with operations acting within the precision common in analog components. All I could guess at, though, since I'm in over my head here.

One other thing I always note is the brain seems to be mostly analog. Look what all it can do which includes memory and high-precision math. So, there's almost certainly some tricks we can use to do something similar with analog. Maybe an analog/digital hybrid. The wafer-scale project on NN's shows the potential esp if it was made 3D w/ a cooling system:

http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.325...

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