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Why Is NumPy Only Now Getting Funded?

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Re: Why Is NumPy Only Now Getting Funded?

#91

Post by abousara »

Scea91 wrote: post #82
abousara wrote: post #78

Each country have its own taxes to sustain fundamentals, same thing must apply in software industry. Software engineers might be paid +100k$ while developing over open source languages/frameworks or libraries. That's is not fair, it is like riding a starving horse. A French point of view (after all, France invented VAT...) would suggest to introduce a taxe on software engineers salaries (1% ?) and redistribute this f…

I find it stupid to offer something for free and then cry when someone does not pay you for it.

Developers who take free time to create projects are not crying for money, they are crying for not having enough time to do more!

Not everybody is made to only work for money.

Re: Why Is NumPy Only Now Getting Funded?

#92

Post by abousara »

adrianN wrote: post #79
abousara wrote: post #78

Each country have its own taxes to sustain fundamentals, same thing must apply in software industry. Software engineers might be paid +100k$ while developing over open source languages/frameworks or libraries. That's is not fair, it is like riding a starving horse. A French point of view (after all, France invented VAT...) would suggest to introduce a taxe on software engineers salaries (1% ?) and redistribute this f…

How about instead of taxing the workers we tax the companies that profit from open source efforts.

Let me explain better, no software engineer (SE) would be paid above 30k$ if he always starts from scratch (walking). He is paid its economic value for being fast. And he is fast because he rides a horse (building over open source language/framework/library).

So while a part of SE are maintaining stables, other part of SE don't want to pay for horse. I think this last part of SE are killing their own jobs.

Re: Why Is NumPy Only Now Getting Funded?

#93

Post by adrianN »

abousara wrote: post #92
adrianN wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How about instead of taxing the workers we tax the companies that profit from open source efforts.

Let me explain better, no software engineer (SE) would be paid above 30k$ if he always starts from scratch (walking). He is paid its economic value for being fast. And he is fast because he rides a horse (building over open source language/framework/library). So while a part of SE are maintaining stables, other part of SE don't want to pay for horse. I think this last part of SE are killing their own jobs.

The software engineer is paid because they produce value for they employer. It's upon the employer, not the employee to pay for the technological infrastructure.

Re: Why Is NumPy Only Now Getting Funded?

#94

Post by abousara »

adrianN wrote: post #93
abousara wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me explain better, no software engineer (SE) would be paid above 30k$ if he always starts from scratch (walking). He is paid its economic value for being fast. And he is fast because he rides a horse (building over open source language/framework/library). So while a part of SE are maintaining stables, other part of SE don't want to pay for horse. I think this last part of SE are killing their own jobs.

The software engineer is paid because they produce value for they employer. It's upon the employer, not the employee to pay for the technological infrastructure.

That's right. But when your employer will ask to shift infrastructure because old one is no more maintained, and to be as productive as before, you'll be very slow at development and get fired. If the employee is paying for the infrastructure, this is because SE are not solidary to open source projects.

Re: Why Is NumPy Only Now Getting Funded?

#95

Post by coldtea »

dagw wrote: post #83
coldtea wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who said people want to do "foundational work"? The just want to write some specific software they enjoy writing together. The question rather is: after said software has been proven valuable and widely used by companies, and when there remain some hard and/or non-enjoyable parts to be done to complete it/enhance it (specific drivers, documentation, advanced features, etc), why don't any of the users donate some mone…

Donating company money is really hard, especially if you're just some manager of some department, and double so if it's not to a registered charity. Much easier to actually buy something like a support contract or a license where you get a purchase order and a receipt from a registered organization. People at companies simply cannot just give company money to random people with paypal accounts even if they think it's…

>Donating company money is really hard, especially if you're just some manager of some department, and double so if it's not to a registered charity.

Maybe the open source communities should register as charities then? They do charitable work after all...

Re: Why Is NumPy Only Now Getting Funded?

#96

Post by numfocusfnd »

sandGorgon wrote: post #66

Because developers generally don't know (or don't like) the outreach necessary to fundraise. For example in numpy case - https://github.com/numpy/numpy.org/issues/9 That's a request in March 2017 to add a donation button to the website. Im not sure that 6 months back, if Numpy was legally structured to receive larger funding. I posted a similar comment (with many more replies) in the context of Octave and it's fundin…

NumPy joined NumFOCUS as a fiscally sponsored project in 2015, so it's been eligible to receive donations as a non-profit (because of NumFOCUS' nonprofit status) since then.

Re: Why Is NumPy Only Now Getting Funded?

#97

Post by numfocusfnd »

coldtea wrote: post #95
dagw wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Donating company money is really hard, especially if you're just some manager of some department, and double so if it's not to a registered charity. Much easier to actually buy something like a support contract or a license where you get a purchase order and a receipt from a registered organization. People at companies simply cannot just give company money to random people with paypal accounts even if they think it's…

> Donating company money is really hard, especially if you're just some manager of some department, and double so if it's not to a registered charity. Maybe the open source communities should register as charities then? They do charitable work after all...

This is the function of the fiscal sponsorship program at NumFOCUS. All fiscally sponsored projects basically come under the umbrella of NumFOCUS' nonprofit status, so that the projects can receive tax-deductible contributions, etc.

Re: Why Is NumPy Only Now Getting Funded?

#98

Post by jordigh »

kgwgk wrote: post #71
jordigh wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

R's and Octave's story is very different. Essentially one of the key originators of S, John Chambers, started to work on R. That would be like Cleve Moler being a core Octave contributor.

At what point did Chambers became involved in R?

The very beginning. Chambers was involved with the initial design of R.

Re: Why Is NumPy Only Now Getting Funded?

#99

Post by shoyer »

eximius wrote: post #63
shoyer wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is spot on. There are plenty of jobs applying open source technologies, but far fewer building those libraries themselves. (I'm NumPy dev who works at Google on machine learning.)

Really? This is somewhat surprising to me. How has Grumpy impacted your work / numerical computing in Python at Google?

I haven't used Grumpy at all, and unless it starts supporting C extension modules like NumPy I doubt I ever will. Google's numerical computing / machine learning stack (e.g., TensorFlow) is based on Python/C++.

Re: Why Is NumPy Only Now Getting Funded?

#100

Post by [deleted] »

shoyer wrote: post #99
eximius wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Really? This is somewhat surprising to me. How has Grumpy impacted your work / numerical computing in Python at Google?

I haven't used Grumpy at all, and unless it starts supporting C extension modules like NumPy I doubt I ever will. Google's numerical computing / machine learning stack (e.g., TensorFlow) is based on Python/C++.

[deleted]
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