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A year of digging through code yields “smoking gun” on VW, Fiat diesel cheats

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Re: A year of digging through code yields “smoking gun” on VW, Fiat diesel cheats

#91

Post by PhasmaFelis »

unityByFreedom wrote: post #73
vinceguidry wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this is that it localizes the consequences of defiance on the weakest part of the chain, all but guaranteeing failure. You can't even expect engineers to blow the whistle on their soon-to-be-former employer. Ethics is about protecting the weak from the strong, not offering up the weak to get eaten by the strong. Only heroes put the good of the many over their own needs, and you can't expect everyone…

> Only heroes put the good of the many over their own needs, and you can't expect everyone to be a hero. > ... > it will never happen while the idea of a guild / union for software engineers is still anathema. Sounds like you're waiting for a union and that's the only solution. In the interim, we can and should encourage people to be heroes. Let's face it, there are other programming jobs out there. Do you truly need…

> In the interim, we can and should encourage people to be heroes. Let's face it, there are other programming jobs out there. Do you truly need to work for an unethical boss or company?

Assuming that the only consequence is needing a new job is naive. Whistleblowers find it very difficult to get hired again.

Re: A year of digging through code yields “smoking gun” on VW, Fiat diesel cheats

#92

Post by calvano915 »

indolering wrote: post #76
mikeash wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is how modern companies break the rules. Management doesn't break the rules, either overtly or covertly. Management scrupulously follows the rules, while placing requirements on their workers that can only be met by breaking the rules. Want your workers to work more, but you don't want to pay overtime, or you run into trouble with regulations about consecutive hours on the job? Just bump up how much work they ha…

This is also how we end up with "crazy" regulations. Case-in-point: nuclear waste handling. Engineers create complex six-sigma safety plans which are then slowly eroded as the regulations and safety protocols are wacky overkill, right? The WIPP nuclear isolation site had a 15 year run so management began to cut corners. Then three unlikely events all lined up and nearly got people killed. It started with a truck catc…

What a fascinating DB you linked to. I'd never known these types of things were public or common.

Re: A year of digging through code yields “smoking gun” on VW, Fiat diesel cheats

#93

Post by mcguire »

vinceguidry wrote: post #18
mabbo wrote: post #9

While I certainly don't support the 'rogue engineer' excuse that VW originally gave everyone, the idea does bring up an interesting point. An engineer did write this code. Almost certainly, many of them, working together. Now, their managers told them it was okay to do this, maybe that legal had given the go-ahead or that they had to do it to keep their jobs... But it's still pretty clear that this was not right. The…

The problem with this is that it localizes the consequences of defiance on the weakest part of the chain, all but guaranteeing failure. You can't even expect engineers to blow the whistle on their soon-to-be-former employer. Ethics is about protecting the weak from the strong, not offering up the weak to get eaten by the strong. Only heroes put the good of the many over their own needs, and you can't expect everyone…

A professional organization can only be strong, safe, and protecting if it has enough teeth to put moral obligations on workers. That seems unlikely.

Re: A year of digging through code yields “smoking gun” on VW, Fiat diesel cheats

#94

Post by ryukafalz »

21 wrote: post #47
jancsika wrote: post #12

> Firmware images were gleaned from car-tuning forums and from an online portal maintained by Volkswagen for car repair shops. Documentation, in the form of so-called “function sheets,” was harder to come by. The function sheets were necessary to give the binary context, but the sheets are copyrighted by Bosch and generally not shared with the public. The research team ended up turning to the auto-performance tuning…

FWIW, airplane or medical software is also closed.

Right, and you can see how well that's worked out: https://www.engadget.com/2017/04/21/pacemaker-security-is-te...

Re: A year of digging through code yields “smoking gun” on VW, Fiat diesel cheats

#95

Post by srdeveng »

pbasista wrote: post #53
mikeash wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is how modern companies break the rules. Management doesn't break the rules, either overtly or covertly. Management scrupulously follows the rules, while placing requirements on their workers that can only be met by breaking the rules. Want your workers to work more, but you don't want to pay overtime, or you run into trouble with regulations about consecutive hours on the job? Just bump up how much work they ha…

You have made some very strong points - thanks for summarizing it together. I would like to ask: What do you think should an ordinary employee do when they see a behavior like you describe from their management? How to efficiently protect themselves (and their colleagues) from this kind of treatment?

The list of 4 items is excellent. Under no circumstances should you act in an insubordinate manner until you've exercised other channels of communication. Acting before things get too far is the easiest remedy.

I'd recommend the following order of operations:

Convey concern over associated risk to your immediate manager. Verbally first during the meeting, switch to written (email, a paper trail of opposition) if no action is taken.

When documenting the paper trail, simply reference meetings which you voiced opposition. Your notepads should also be able to back up the talking point you're referencing.

Being asked to briefly switch hours or work late is often listed in your job description so stopping suddenly at 5p can be considered insubordinate. Time should be compensated in a time off or paid OT arrangement promptly. If your verbal requests go without action, again, switch to email.

Simply documenting the events as they occur makes it easy for when you need to go above your immediate supervisor ( more senior manager, corporate hq, department of labor) for help.

Key is to be polite in all interactions. Innocent mistakes happen. Managers are under deadlines too. Paper trial should be maintained regardless of action or inaction.

Re: A year of digging through code yields “smoking gun” on VW, Fiat diesel cheats

#96

Post by vinceguidry »

jamiepenney wrote: post #70
vinceguidry wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this is that it localizes the consequences of defiance on the weakest part of the chain, all but guaranteeing failure. You can't even expect engineers to blow the whistle on their soon-to-be-former employer. Ethics is about protecting the weak from the strong, not offering up the weak to get eaten by the strong. Only heroes put the good of the many over their own needs, and you can't expect everyone…

Whenever I've raised the issue with other developers they've been open to the idea, but to be perfectly honest I have no idea how you'd even go about starting something like that.

As with everything else hackers do, the way to learn would be to just do. If I were to do it, I'd start with a website and an outreach campaign. Sign people up to a mailing list, then create a membership structure and dues. Set some goals, and put governing procedures in place. Some endorsements from existing outfits like YCombinator itself and more traditional unions would help.

Eventually once you have enough money, you can create professional certification bodies. This is when you can really start ramping up your dues because then you'll be solving an actual industry problem. You could probably take a lot of money from big tech companies to help you out here once you're established.

Re: A year of digging through code yields “smoking gun” on VW, Fiat diesel cheats

#97

Post by dubyah »

kadavero wrote: post #85
majewsky wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why would regulators do this in a lab? It's like health inspections that would ask restaurants to send food to be tested, instead of showing up anytime, unannounced. Because the law on how regulators work was written by the auto lobby. (At least, that's how it is in the EU. Don't know about the US.)

Funny you should mention the lobby. The US auto lobby was the reason the US NOx diesel emission requirements are more stringent than EU in the first place, specifically disadvantaging European diesel cars (which are much cleaner overall).

>The US auto lobby was the reason the US NOx diesel emission requirements are more stringent than EU in the first place

No, that was a result of the Clean Air Act Amendments of 1990 for the reduction of acid rain. Though it was targeted towards industrial emissions of SO2 & NOx, but stricter regulation for vehicles were an additional effect.

>specifically disadvantaging European diesel cars

That's a weird argument given that diesel passenger vehicles in the US are held to the same standard as gasoline ones, but to a separate standard from their petrol counterparts in the EU. I mean, one could argue the opposite, that an EU emissions policy favorable to diesels amounted to an equivalent 13-16% import tariff. [1] Several domestic rather than just foreign diesel engine manufacturers were also penalized for using defeat devices in 1998.[2]

> (which are much cleaner overall)

That's quite arguable, trading lower CO2 & CO for increased NOx & PM.

[1]: http://www.eugeniomiravete.com/papers/MMT-Diesel.pdf

[2]: http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1998-10-23/news/981023011...

Re: A year of digging through code yields “smoking gun” on VW, Fiat diesel cheats

#98

Post by vinceguidry »

unityByFreedom wrote: post #73
vinceguidry wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this is that it localizes the consequences of defiance on the weakest part of the chain, all but guaranteeing failure. You can't even expect engineers to blow the whistle on their soon-to-be-former employer. Ethics is about protecting the weak from the strong, not offering up the weak to get eaten by the strong. Only heroes put the good of the many over their own needs, and you can't expect everyone…

> Only heroes put the good of the many over their own needs, and you can't expect everyone to be a hero. > ... > it will never happen while the idea of a guild / union for software engineers is still anathema. Sounds like you're waiting for a union and that's the only solution. In the interim, we can and should encourage people to be heroes. Let's face it, there are other programming jobs out there. Do you truly need…

I'm not waiting for anything. I'm simply recognizing that "encouraging" engineers to be heroes is the lazy way out and is not a real solution to anything. This is a political problem, it can only be met by an appropriately collective effort.

> Let's face it, there are other programming jobs out there.

OK, let's run with that for a moment. Where else would you have expected the VW whistleblowers to get jobs? Not every engineering job is a fungible web dev position. Those skills are useful for that one industry only, and that worker would have to uproot his family and move to get a less-desirable position.

No matter how you shake it, leaving a job is a major life decision for most people not in Silicon Valley, yes, even most engineers. And even in the fungible sectors like finance and the web, word gets around.

I have wondered if a distributed whistleblowing network ala Wikileaks but focused on putting public pressure on the most egregious offenders would be a worthwhile thing to build. Essentially we'd run outreach campaigns for high-impact sectors that use lots of software engineers and encourage them to spill the beans, which would end up into a select group of news reporters / lawyers who are positioned to take action.

I have a feeling that's not quite the right approach, but I think with a bit of refinement we could come up with something better.

Re: A year of digging through code yields “smoking gun” on VW, Fiat diesel cheats

#99

Post by phire »

gerdesj wrote: post #78
mabbo wrote: post #9

While I certainly don't support the 'rogue engineer' excuse that VW originally gave everyone, the idea does bring up an interesting point. An engineer did write this code. Almost certainly, many of them, working together. Now, their managers told them it was okay to do this, maybe that legal had given the go-ahead or that they had to do it to keep their jobs... But it's still pretty clear that this was not right. The…

It appears that the firmware was written by Bosch and not VW themselves. I can't believe that only VW engineers were involved in writing the spec that was sent to Bosch and that only one of those engineers understood that "acoustic" really meant "emissions". I would imagine that Robert Bosch GMBH and co. are quietly developing a war chest of cash right now. They appear to have been caught writing deliberately naughty…

The firmware is ultra-generic but highly configurable. The default device isn't in the firmware itself.

Many different engine types will use the exact same firmware, the manufacture supplies a huge array of configuration values to make the ECU run the engine correctly.

All the firmware knows is that under some manufacture configurable situation, the engine will switch from one manufacture configurable mode of operation to another manufacture configurable mode of operation.

This presentation from 32C3 explains it in much more detail: https://media.ccc.de/v/32c3-7331-the_exhaust_emissions_scand...

Re: A year of digging through code yields “smoking gun” on VW, Fiat diesel cheats

#100

Post by ant6n »

throwaway79790 wrote: post #59
mabbo wrote: post #9

While I certainly don't support the 'rogue engineer' excuse that VW originally gave everyone, the idea does bring up an interesting point. An engineer did write this code. Almost certainly, many of them, working together. Now, their managers told them it was okay to do this, maybe that legal had given the go-ahead or that they had to do it to keep their jobs... But it's still pretty clear that this was not right. The…

The problem is that nobody wrote a specific defeat device. You have to understand, Bosch has one basic (extremely complex) piece of software that goes in pretty much every single engine controller. There are some specific functions that are developed at the request of specific customers, but the basics are always the same. When this general piece of software is set up to control a new engine from an OEM, a multi-year…

But somebody had to write code that recognizes that an emissions test is being performed, no? I mean that sounds like it would be more involved than just loading some different set of parameters.
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