Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job • Hacker News Board

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#91

Post by valuearb » Sat, May 13, 2017, 8:59 PM UTC

ScottBurson wrote: post #64

valuearb wrote: post #3

"California law prohibits noncompete clauses, contributing to the inveterate poaching with which the state’s technology industry was founded. It can be brutal for employers, but it helps raise wages and has created a situation where any company looking to hire a bunch of engineers in a hurry, be it an established giant or a start-up, feels it should locate there."

Noncompete enforceability is, to me, a very interesting example of how individuals pursuing their own self-interest leads to a bad outcome for everyone -- a classic Tragedy of the Commons. In a state that allows noncompetes, it's in pretty much every employer's interest to use them and enforce them as much as they can; and yet over the long run, their doing that strangles the economy -- not fatally, but enough so tha…

If you are required to pay for a non-compete, then most employers won't find it in their best interests to pay extra for them.

The problem is that some states allow non-competes without compensations and most employees sign everything in front of them.

This week a startup asked me to interview for a contract gig. Before the interview they sent me a 3 year NDA. I responded that I'm not signing an NDA to interview for a job, I have no idea what they will tell me and I'm not going to limit my future clients/work options just because we had a conversation. They backed down and we had a high level discussion and I told them to get someone else.

Another option is always to modify the agreement. In the case of the NDA I was prepared to x out the 3 year term and replace it with a one year term and initial it in that state before signing. If they didn't like it, fine.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#92

Post by icedchai » Sat, May 13, 2017, 9:00 PM UTC

linkregister wrote: post #84

etjossem wrote: post #9

Worth remembering, especially for those just entering the software field: by the time a potential employer gives you an employment agreement to sign, they've already decided they want you. At that point, it's on them to give you a palatable offer. They may include a noncompete clause for one of two reasons: 1) to prevent you from working somewhere else at the same time, which can create all sorts of conflicts of inte…

I hear this advice about contracts of adhesion all the time, "just red line out the parts you don't like, just like in that scene in 50 Shades of Gray." Who in the software industry still gets offers like that? Everyone I know gets a DocuSign PDF they sign digitally. There's no opportunity to alter the document. There is basically no non-confrontational way to do this. If a software developer has a competing offer, s…

I've had multiple employers "alter the document." I send an email, saying I have reviewed, saying I can't sign unless A, B, and C are done.

Usually, this involves removing clauses about not having other employment or side work, which are a non-starter for me. One employer added an appendix full of "exceptions", saying "all side work is allowed, not further authorization required."

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#93

Post by koolba » Sat, May 13, 2017, 9:01 PM UTC

trustfundbaby wrote: post #90

etjossem wrote: post #9

Worth remembering, especially for those just entering the software field: by the time a potential employer gives you an employment agreement to sign, they've already decided they want you. At that point, it's on them to give you a palatable offer. They may include a noncompete clause for one of two reasons: 1) to prevent you from working somewhere else at the same time, which can create all sorts of conflicts of inte…

Just be ready for the company to pull the offer. Lots of times it's not even on the principle (we don't actually agree to the changes) but ego ... as in "who does this guy think he is pushing back on this contract that 100s of our employees have signed" If you're not ready for the company to walk away, be careful with this approach.

If you're not ready to walk away then you're not ready period.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#94

Post by ScottBurson » Sat, May 13, 2017, 9:02 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #30

etjossem wrote: post #9

Worth remembering, especially for those just entering the software field: by the time a potential employer gives you an employment agreement to sign, they've already decided they want you. At that point, it's on them to give you a palatable offer. They may include a noncompete clause for one of two reasons: 1) to prevent you from working somewhere else at the same time, which can create all sorts of conflicts of inte…

I've never been presented with one (and hope I never will) so this is hypothetical, but I have a hard time imagining even doing that. A company is paying me to work for them, they're not paying to own me. When I'm off the clock, my time is my own, up to and including doing paid work for anyone else I want. I'd make an exception if they increased my pay accordingly. But considering that they're asking for 4.2x more of…

> First, it's likely they'll use the phrase "standard contract" and say that it just can't be changed.

I wonder what would happen if you said "Ah, so you're stipulating that it's a contract of adhesion. I'd like that in writing, please."

Contracts of adhesion can be harder to enforce [0].

(IANAL, and I'm not necessarily recommending doing this, but I am curious what kind of response one would be likely to get.)

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_form_contract#Contrac...

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#95

Post by etjossem » Sat, May 13, 2017, 9:03 PM UTC

trustfundbaby wrote: post #90

etjossem wrote: post #9

Worth remembering, especially for those just entering the software field: by the time a potential employer gives you an employment agreement to sign, they've already decided they want you. At that point, it's on them to give you a palatable offer. They may include a noncompete clause for one of two reasons: 1) to prevent you from working somewhere else at the same time, which can create all sorts of conflicts of inte…

Just be ready for the company to pull the offer. Lots of times it's not even on the principle (we don't actually agree to the changes) but ego ... as in "who does this guy think he is pushing back on this contract that 100s of our employees have signed" If you're not ready for the company to walk away, be careful with this approach.

Agreed. Be aware of your BATNA (that's your "best alternative to negotiated agreement") as well as the potential employer's. As in any negotiation, you should stack the deck in your favor beforehand - be late-stage in the interview process elsewhere, ideally have other offers, truthfully signal that you do, and try to move at a time when the employer badly needs to make a hire.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#96

Post by 3pt14159 » Sat, May 13, 2017, 9:04 PM UTC

linkregister wrote: post #84

etjossem wrote: post #9

Worth remembering, especially for those just entering the software field: by the time a potential employer gives you an employment agreement to sign, they've already decided they want you. At that point, it's on them to give you a palatable offer. They may include a noncompete clause for one of two reasons: 1) to prevent you from working somewhere else at the same time, which can create all sorts of conflicts of inte…

I hear this advice about contracts of adhesion all the time, "just red line out the parts you don't like, just like in that scene in 50 Shades of Gray." Who in the software industry still gets offers like that? Everyone I know gets a DocuSign PDF they sign digitally. There's no opportunity to alter the document. There is basically no non-confrontational way to do this. If a software developer has a competing offer, s…

What?

Only if you're very inexperienced will this be tricky, once you're senior nobody bats an eye when I ask for things to be changed in the contract.

A contract is part of communicating how we will work together. Demonstrate that you're competent by clearly communicating the changes you want and why you want them and if they react back poorly then you dodged a major bullet, since they'll also communicate poorly in day to day functions.

I'm not saying you'll always get what you want, but there should never be anger, and just because you're sent a signable document via DocuSign doesn't mean you have to sign that version of it.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#97

Post by esoterica » Sat, May 13, 2017, 9:06 PM UTC

etjossem wrote: post #83

esoterica wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Redlining the non-compete section is not a minor modification. Some companies are very serious about their non-competes. They will pay you millions of dollars to respect them (and sue you for millions of dollars if you don't). If you try and cross out your non compete agreement they will just withdraw your job offer. Non competes aren't intrinsically shady or evil. Some companies have business models that depend very…

This advice is not meant for people who are being paid millions of dollars to respect a non-compete they fully understand and consent to.

Change the numbers by a factor of 10 and the point still applies.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#98

Post by anarazel » Sat, May 13, 2017, 9:06 PM UTC

esoterica wrote: post #82

etjossem wrote: post #9

Worth remembering, especially for those just entering the software field: by the time a potential employer gives you an employment agreement to sign, they've already decided they want you. At that point, it's on them to give you a palatable offer. They may include a noncompete clause for one of two reasons: 1) to prevent you from working somewhere else at the same time, which can create all sorts of conflicts of inte…

Redlining the non-compete section is not a minor modification. Some companies are very serious about their non-competes. They will pay you millions of dollars to respect them (and sue you for millions of dollars if you don't). If you try and cross out your non compete agreement they will just withdraw your job offer. Non competes aren't intrinsically shady or evil. Some companies have business models that depend very…

> Non competes aren't intrinsically shady or evil.

If they're not paying you while you're not allowed to work in your field, yes, they are. And unfortunately that's a lot of them. If you're being paid to sit in your backyard or do something in a another field, that's a different story.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#99

Post by lmkg » Sat, May 13, 2017, 9:08 PM UTC

postfacto wrote: post #78

If you're going to violate a noncompete, don't tell anyone you're going to work for a competitor. Keep yourself as small of a target as possible for your former competitor's legal team. - When you quit, tell your now former employer that you're quitting to pursue something other than what was your established industry. Your (made up) lifelong dream of starting your own microbrew brand, Macrome supply business, winery…

Your suggestion is that if your employer tries to pull this unethical behavior against you, is that you should lie, run, hide, and sacrifice your own personal relationships? There are better ways of dealing with this than acting like what you did was criminal and laying low for a year until it blows over.

Re: Noncompete Clauses: Signing Away the Right to Get a New Job

#100

Post by metaphorm » Sat, May 13, 2017, 9:09 PM UTC

linkregister wrote: post #84

etjossem wrote: post #9

Worth remembering, especially for those just entering the software field: by the time a potential employer gives you an employment agreement to sign, they've already decided they want you. At that point, it's on them to give you a palatable offer. They may include a noncompete clause for one of two reasons: 1) to prevent you from working somewhere else at the same time, which can create all sorts of conflicts of inte…

I hear this advice about contracts of adhesion all the time, "just red line out the parts you don't like, just like in that scene in 50 Shades of Gray." Who in the software industry still gets offers like that? Everyone I know gets a DocuSign PDF they sign digitally. There's no opportunity to alter the document. There is basically no non-confrontational way to do this. If a software developer has a competing offer, s…

contract negotiation requires human interaction. the "redline the clauses that are unacceptable to you" statement should be treated as non-literal. you don't literally resubmit a document with struck text. you get on the phone and talk to the hiring manager.