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New Evidence Suggests Humans Arrived in the Americas Earlier Than Thought

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Re: New Evidence Suggests Humans Arrived in the Americas Earlier Than Thought

#91
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your citation does not support the "decisively predates agriculture" claim, and in fact refers to early agriculture at the site as one of the competing interpretations.

Göbekli Tepe was built ~11,500 years ago, and it probably isn't a coincidence that early agriculture was developed in the same area -- about 1,000 years later. The early agriculture reference that you mention concerns the fact that the was abandoned as early agriculture started to take hold: > Around the beginning of the 8th millennium BCE Göbekli Tepe ("Potbelly Hill") lost its importance. The advent of agriculture…

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Re: New Evidence Suggests Humans Arrived in the Americas Earlier Than Thought

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently watched a NOVA documentary from last year that refutes the Eurocentric theories of Clovis origins. Great Human Odyssey: http://www.pbs.org/video/2365856257/ Geneticists sequenced the DNA from a young boy's 13,000-year-old bones found in Montana. His DNA matches a specific combination of Eastern Asian and Siberian DNA that is found in all North and South American native populations, and only in these popula…

but given political considerations, can that particular science be trusted?

If you're going to object to their science, let's hear the actual objections and not just handwavey notions that somehow the science is bad because you don't favor the conclusions.

Re: New Evidence Suggests Humans Arrived in the Americas Earlier Than Thought

#93
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, Beringia went through many cycles of land and sea coverage[0]. Our climate has been pretty up and down since homo sapiens came onto the stage. Aside: The land-bridge was not just a passing point, it was actually a nice place to sit and stay, due to the wind, sea, and glacial climatic issues. Also, the coastal-migration idea states that we just skimmed the coast all the way to at least Chile. The issue with that…

> It seems like we've been pretty smart for a long long time. There are civilizations all over the globe that rose, fell, and died, and we will never ever know of them. The idea of 'civilization' is ancient, it seems. I've wondered about that a lot, actually. If homo sapiens have been around for ~200k years (according to wikipedia), what were we doing for the first 185k years? What changed ~15k years ago that we star…

Though people are suggesting the answer to your question is agriculture...I'd say it was likely writing (accounting/contracts) and in today's terms writing disrupted the existing systems of agriculture and city planning/building/management.

As far as technology goes...one day there was spoken word the next voices/thoughts could be communicated without a person and through time - that is magic.

Re: New Evidence Suggests Humans Arrived in the Americas Earlier Than Thought

#94
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, Beringia went through many cycles of land and sea coverage[0]. Our climate has been pretty up and down since homo sapiens came onto the stage. Aside: The land-bridge was not just a passing point, it was actually a nice place to sit and stay, due to the wind, sea, and glacial climatic issues. Also, the coastal-migration idea states that we just skimmed the coast all the way to at least Chile. The issue with that…

> It seems like we've been pretty smart for a long long time. There are civilizations all over the globe that rose, fell, and died, and we will never ever know of them. The idea of 'civilization' is ancient, it seems. I've wondered about that a lot, actually. If homo sapiens have been around for ~200k years (according to wikipedia), what were we doing for the first 185k years? What changed ~15k years ago that we star…

According to Jared Diamond, part of this was the development of complex, spoken language. He thinks it is responsible for a "great leap forward" about 60k years ago -- https://www.theguardian.com/education/2003/jul/03/research.h...

This would predate agriculture.

Re: New Evidence Suggests Humans Arrived in the Americas Earlier Than Thought

#95
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the traditional answer, but it's wrong. Göbekli Tepe[1] decisively pre-dates agriculture. Although it wasn't inhabited, it displays a level of technology and social organisation on par with city-building. But agriculture definitely had nothing to do with it. Not saying that I've got a good answer for what did happen -- just that agriculture wasn't it. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6bekli_Tepe

Agriculture allows higher population density - a nice alternative to starvation, war, infanticide. But agriculture is less pleasant than hunter-gathering, so you avoid it til you have serious population problems.

Alternatively, fishing also allows for high population density's. But, those city's are now under a lot of water.

Further, civilizations based on wood instead of stone may have vastly fewer remnants. Which creates bias as we assume civilizations started in areas without much wood.

Or, it's actually not food that's the limitation but rather something else like culture with farming going back much further.

Re: New Evidence Suggests Humans Arrived in the Americas Earlier Than Thought

#96
post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every single map is inaccurate in a way, I suggest you read How to lie with maps by Mark Monmonier.

Every single map that's not a globe, anyway... And even those are technically lies, since the Earth is not perfectly spherical.

And more generally, "the map is not the territory".

Re: New Evidence Suggests Humans Arrived in the Americas Earlier Than Thought

#97
post #3

It's only 50 miles by sea from Eurasia to the Americas. People got to Australia around 40,000–60,000 years ago by boat so it seems unlikely that people needed a land bridge to get to the Americas. Remember, the globe also looks like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo#/media/File:Inuit_conf_... PS: I suspect the Americas where well known in the 1700's, but nobody was talking to the Russian Far East when map ma…

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Re: New Evidence Suggests Humans Arrived in the Americas Earlier Than Thought

#98
So lets look at the evidence:

OUTLIER DATE:

This site is an outlier among archaeological sites in terms of the date. The date given for Californians according to this research is 130 000 year ago.

As far as I am aware, the earliest recorded human site outside of Africa is one in China 120 000 years ago.

And even that site is an outlier because human migration into the middle east began happening 120 000 -100 000 years ago, 60 000 years ago into Asia, and and 45 000 years into Europe.

Now that in itself is not conclusive, maybe there are older sites that we haven't found and this discovery pushes back human migration. Except there are other problems here.

LACK OF HUMAN REMAINS OR HUMAN ARTIFACTS

So the scientists say the rocks have markings that look like they had been used as a hammer and anvil and there are some mastodon bones near it.

Now no actual human bones were found near this site. Which is certainly not impossible for these kinds of sites. More problematic is that there were no obvious stone tools other than rocks with markings that look like they'd been hit.

With ancient humans, especially ones capable of hunting mastodons, you would expect them to make sharp stone points by flaking (hiting one stone against another). This should leave flakes and tools on the ground. Yet, at this site, there were no stone tools of this sort found anywhere at this site.

LACK OF CUT MARKINGS ON BONES

Further, once ancient humans killed the mastodon, you would expect them to cut pieces of flesh off with a stone knife so that it could be eaten. This process would leave marks on the bones where the flesh had been cut. The article tells us that no such markings were found on these bones.

> Yet there were no cut marks on the bones showing that the animal was butchered for meat.

AVAILABILITY OF ALTERNATIVE EXPLANATIONS

None of these factors itself is fatal, but all three combined, the outlier date (way to early considering the mainstream evidence shows that our species were just getting set up in the middle east at this time,) the absence of human tools nearby, the absence of cut marks on the bones, the absence of any human skeletons or remains in the area. All of these lead me to think there must be another explanation.

It's not impossible that the bones of dead mastodons can get trampled or broken. Under the right circumstances, it's not impossible that trampling can cause rocks to smash against one another or leave marks on the rock. Maybe there was a cliff in the area many years ago and the bones and the rocks took a deep fall. In any event, there are alternative explanations and it is not inconceivable that this happened through natural means. This is hardly smoking gun evidence of human in California 130 000 years ago.

USE OF WEAK EXPLANATORY MECHANISMS

And I think the weakness of this evidence is belied by the unusual explanatory leaps made by the discoverers. When pointed out that there is no evidence that the remains had been butchered for meat, he responds:

"The suggestion is that this site is strictly for breaking bone, to produce blank material, raw material to make bone tools or to extract marrow." Seriously? Why would they break bones without butchering the meat and eating it? Why would you have a separate site just for bone marrow? That makes no sense.

EVIDENCE THAT IS ANYTHING BUT CLEAR LABELED AS CLEAR

>He says the rocks showed clear marks of having been used as hammers and an anvil.

Really, I mean they have pictures of the rocks on the site. It doesn't seem that clear to me that they were hammer and anvil stones. Are they clear to anyone else? They could just easily be old worn rocks. I would expect humans that could make it from Africa or wherever all the way to California 130 000 years ago to be somewhat advanced enough that they have tools more advanced than just two random pieces of rock to bang together. This was the age where humans had started molding rocks for suited purposes by flaking them. Why they would just use two natural rocks instead of created rocks is questionable. If you type in acheulean tools into google, you can see the sophisticated flaked tools (sharp looking leaf shaped blades) our ancestors were making 1.7 million years ago . . . yet ones that traveled all the way to California and kill mastodons are still stuck banging random un-molded rocks against each other for marrow- why?

I have nothing against pushing back migration to Americas, but this site is probably more wishful thinking on part of its founders than legitimate discovery.

Re: New Evidence Suggests Humans Arrived in the Americas Earlier Than Thought

#99
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with that argument is that you can use it to attack, well, anything, so long as the countervailing viewpoint is threatening to your own worldview. One could very well have applied the same objection to the null result of the Michelson-Morely experiment: since it showed that the Earth was acting weirdly with respect to the lumeniferous aether, obviously there must be something more pedestrian at work than…

Do you have a reference supporting "For most mainstream anthropologists"? Do you have an explanation for why pre-Clovis humans didn't leave a ton of remains everywhere?

The story appears to be complicated, and there is some disagreement about basic points. The introduction to this article has a good recent summary: http://advances.sciencemag.org/content/2/4/e1501385.full

Re: New Evidence Suggests Humans Arrived in the Americas Earlier Than Thought

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

maybe there was a form of homo erectus already in america, using stone tools etc, having arrived 130k yrs or more ago, and then the indians wiped them out when they arrived much later--that would explain indian tales of having wiped out primitive cannibal tribes (a movie called bone tomahawk was inspired by these tales)...of course the political considerations would tend to suppress this idea.

Come on, you can't take legends from circa 1500 AD to be evidence of anything that happened somewhere between 11,000 and 20,000 years earlier, especially without writing. It's far more likely that primitive cannibal tribes were made up wholesale than that societies carried the memory of them for more than 10,000 years.

The Klamath Native American tribe has legends of the eruption of Mt. Mazama that formed Oregon's Crater Lake - which happened in ~5677 BC [1]. If oral legends that reflect real events can last seven and a half thousand years, is there any reason to think they couldn't last 15ky, or 20ky? It seems to me all that's needed is a continuous cultural line.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Llao

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