Live data from Hacker News

Shenzhen is a hothouse of innovation

economist.com

91–100 of 166 posts

Re: Shenzhen is a hothouse of innovation

#91

> The common perception that China is incapable of innovation needs re-examining. No one is saying Chinese people can't innovate. The real question is whether Chinese people can innovate while inside China. (I wonder what percentage of current captains of industry in China studied abroad?) Why? Because innovation is essentially disrupting and rebelling against the status quo. ie breaking rules, disobedience, oppositi…

China is not Russian style system where oligarchs close to leader step in and steal your stuff if you get rich. China resembles (British) monarchy of the old. There are laws, but they are not same for the common man and to the noble (60 million members of the communist party). If you steer away from the politics, you can be entrepreneur and become rich. Corruption exists of course, but that's like taxation. You pay y…

At least some of that may be simple circumstance. When GDP growth is at 7%, it makes more sense for the oligarchs to invest in whatever is hot than it does to steal (everyone's getting rich, why take the risk and make the enemies?).

The US remains mostly uncorrupt at 2.2%.

Russia's GDP growth is at 1.3% per my quick google search, which is well underneath inflation. If you're sitting at the top with a mostly asset-dominated income, you have to be stealing if you want to grow. So only the thieves win.

Re: Shenzhen is a hothouse of innovation

#92
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been reading Bunny's "The Hardware Hacker" and it does make me want to visit. What I find particularly fascinating is that it provides powerful evidence that 'open' is innovative and 'closed' is stifling. Early on in the tech business everything was 'open'. The IBM PC published the source code to the BIOS in its technical manual, Intel and Motorola documented all of the options on their chips and how to program…

Actually, buying Bunnie's "The Essential Guide to Electronics in Shenzhen" [1] was what motivated me to make the trip. I was motivated enough to spent 7+ months learning basic Mandarin before making the trip. Not to mention the WIRED videos on Shenzhen featuring Bunnie [2]. Learning the Mandarin number system made negotiating prices a breeze. I just got the Hardware Hacker a month or so ago. Great read. [1] https://w…

I made audio files of all words and phrases in "The Essential Guide to Electronics in Shenzhen" and posted it here: https://soundcloud.com/sexycyborg/sets/shenzhen_bunnie-huang

Re: Shenzhen is a hothouse of innovation

#93
post #7

The "maker movement" is alive in Shentzen, but mostly dead in Silicon Valley. TechShop is mostly crafters, not people building anything innovative. Hacker Dojo is appslaves. If there's a maker space in Silicon Valley with a pick and place machine, I can't find it.

>The "maker movement" is alive in Shentzen

There is no Maker movement in Shenzhen- there are well-equipped spaces we show to tourists, there is no Maker Movement in the usual use of the word. Go check- no Github repositories, no posted projects anywhere. It's entirely fake- and the money well spent because people believe it despite there being no actual output.

Re: Shenzhen is a hothouse of innovation

#94
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've come to conclude any culture that teaches strong forms of "respect your elders" will have a tough time building an innovation economy.

Japan?

How much of that is a result of being forced to change due to outside pressure? The fact that they did it well is secondary. I took a course at Yale where they taught the Western canon of literature as Satanic text, where Western culture was presented as justified rebellion. What is the Eastern equivalent?

Re: Shenzhen is a hothouse of innovation

#95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is not Russian style system where oligarchs close to leader step in and steal your stuff if you get rich. China resembles (British) monarchy of the old. There are laws, but they are not same for the common man and to the noble (60 million members of the communist party). If you steer away from the politics, you can be entrepreneur and become rich. Corruption exists of course, but that's like taxation. You pay y…

Rule by law, not rule of law. Once you understand the difference between these two concepts, you'll understand China a bit better.

That's not a particularly clear distinction, care to expand / unpack?

Re: Shenzhen is a hothouse of innovation

#96
Ok, I'm probably more engaged in discussing and promoting Shenzhen with Westerners in English than any other Shenzhen resident. I'm a Hackaday contributor, tweet and vblog about it with more followers than any other local, all that. I'm also the most prolific Maker as Westerners tend to define "Maker" in Shenzhen, maybe China. No, I'm not bragging, check around.

>Shenzhen has only a handful of lacklustre institutions of higher learning

Shenzhen University- while not Tsinghua, it well regarded and it's graduates are quickly hired by local tech companies.

>Shenzhen spends over 4% of its GDP on research and development (R&D), double the mainland average; in Nanshan the share is over 6%.

This is true "on the ground" and it shows- I live in Nanshan High Tech Park right in the center of this. The amount of money local government and local companies are putting into innovation is staggering.

>Most of the money comes from private firms. Companies in Shenzhen file more international patents

Lots of these are questionable. There are financial incentives for the number of patents filed. Goodhart's law applies in China like no place else. Likewise- you can get grants and tax breaks opening a Makerspace, so we have over 600. In reality nearly all of these are empty offices.

>He insists this could not have been done even in Silicon Valley, because California cannot match Shenzhen’s ecosystem of “makers”.

Shenzhen has no Makers, and no Maker culture. We have one, maybe two Makerspaces in the Western tradition and their focus is almost entirely on kids classes. There are huge obstacles to actually building an authentic Maker Culture in China which we have been unable to overcome. As a result- the same factory bosses and businessmen we've always had, are now called "Makers". People who actually do technical things- let along things with their own hands are still called engineers and still very much looked down on.

We have large, fantastically equipped Makerspaces- these are about as real as a North Korean fruit stand. They are part of the local cargo cult mentality and purely for face. It is common here to have a huge, privately catered "Maker Meetup" of hundreds of people- and not a single person in the room will have ever fabricated anything with their own two hands. They are also quite proud of this.

Yes- some tremendous innovation occurring here and it's a fantastic place for hardware. No- very little authentic Maker culture and very little interest in actually fostering it.

Re: Shenzhen is a hothouse of innovation

#97
post #41
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pick and place machines are used for volume pcb production - not the kind of thing one would expect to find in your average maker space AFAIK.

There's one for $1799 intended for prototypes.[1] It's clever; it uses more vision processing and less tooling than other pick and place machines. Parts only have to be close to the right place; the vision systems do the fine adjustments. Unfortunately, few people seem to have one working. There are two hacker spaces that got one, and there's even an unboxing video, but didn't get it assembled and working. I could us…

Use a hand held vacuum tool:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdGSFc7VjBE

Re: Shenzhen is a hothouse of innovation

#98
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is not Russian style system where oligarchs close to leader step in and steal your stuff if you get rich. China resembles (British) monarchy of the old. There are laws, but they are not same for the common man and to the noble (60 million members of the communist party). If you steer away from the politics, you can be entrepreneur and become rich. Corruption exists of course, but that's like taxation. You pay y…

At least some of that may be simple circumstance. When GDP growth is at 7%, it makes more sense for the oligarchs to invest in whatever is hot than it does to steal (everyone's getting rich, why take the risk and make the enemies?). The US remains mostly uncorrupt at 2.2%. Russia's GDP growth is at 1.3% per my quick google search, which is well underneath inflation. If you're sitting at the top with a mostly asset-do…

US has high levels of corruption at the top, it's just better hidden and less accessible to most people. The secret is changing how the rules operate instead of selective enforcement.

Re: Shenzhen is a hothouse of innovation

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rule by law, not rule of law. Once you understand the difference between these two concepts, you'll understand China a bit better.

That's not a particularly clear distinction, care to expand / unpack?

hazarding a guess, i expect he's saying rule by a privileged group using law as a tool, versus the (ideal) western conception of the rule of law, as a framework that everyone must operate within, equally subject and evenly applied

Re: Shenzhen is a hothouse of innovation

#100
post #98
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least some of that may be simple circumstance. When GDP growth is at 7%, it makes more sense for the oligarchs to invest in whatever is hot than it does to steal (everyone's getting rich, why take the risk and make the enemies?). The US remains mostly uncorrupt at 2.2%. Russia's GDP growth is at 1.3% per my quick google search, which is well underneath inflation. If you're sitting at the top with a mostly asset-do…

US has high levels of corruption at the top, it's just better hidden and less accessible to most people. The secret is changing how the rules operate instead of selective enforcement.

Corruption in this sense of the word is economic and quantifiable, we're not talking about policymaking and who bought off whichever party you hate. The US is near the bottom of the industrialized world in metrics like this.
Post reply on HN