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A linguist on Arrival's alien language (2016)

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Re: A linguist on Arrival's alien language (2016)

#91

Post by sjclemmy »

skizm wrote: post #80
katamaritaco wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it is worth, numbers are not necessarily a 'universal concept'. One of the most talked about examples is Piraha[0], a language which doesn't really represent numbers. This is interesting because a study done by Everett and Frank[1] shows that this can actually have effects on cognition, providing some evidence for the Sapir-Wharf hypothesis[3] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirah%C3%A3_language [1] http:/…

What I meant more than anything else with numbers being "universal" is that they exist even if your language doesn't have words for them.

Are you sure? ;-)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intuitionism

Re: A linguist on Arrival's alien language (2016)

#92

Post by M_Grey »

skizm wrote: post #25

What bothered me the most is that the way they start the "conversation" with the aliens is by using names and human concepts (walking, eating, etc.). I'm not a trained linguist or anything, but it seems to me they should start with concepts that are universal: mainly numbers. Maybe as a CS guy I'm biased (since my language is symbols and numbers), but literally every conceivable language has to contain numbers of som…

I don't know about numbers... but something absolutely and physical might be useful? Representations of the hyperfine transitions of hydrogen would be one obvious one that any spacefaring species would have to recognize.

Re: A linguist on Arrival's alien language (2016)

#94

Post by jhbadger »

awinter-py wrote: post #61
thefalcon wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My city is grid based, but downtown is rotated 45 degrees from the cardinal directions. This leaves me constantly confused and confounded while downtown, not least because the transition streets from downtown to the rest of the city are all at crazy angles (that is, unlike anything where I grew up). As you say, this isn't a language feature. For me the concepts of N,E,W,S and the easy visualization matters more than…

fascinating. what city? It sounds like you're not a native -- in your observation, is the ability to navigate easily in the 'rotated downtown' area correlated with having grown up nearby? That would make a cool study.

Montreal works this way -- the street grid is aligned to the St. Lawrence rather than to compass directions

Re: A linguist on Arrival's alien language (2016)

#95

Post by SkyMarshal »

skizm wrote: post #25

What bothered me the most is that the way they start the "conversation" with the aliens is by using names and human concepts (walking, eating, etc.). I'm not a trained linguist or anything, but it seems to me they should start with concepts that are universal: mainly numbers. Maybe as a CS guy I'm biased (since my language is symbols and numbers), but literally every conceivable language has to contain numbers of som…

Fwiw the movie Contact got this part right, the aliens sent a language based on "universal" mathematical concepts, and once the humans recognized the "primer", or translation key, they were able to reconstruct the data the aliens sent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePa6eUxhkYo&t=4m40s

Re: A linguist on Arrival's alien language (2016)

#96

Post by stickfigure »

artimaeis wrote: post #76
remarkEon wrote: post #65

One thing that I think always confuses me about any science fiction work that deals with Humans meeting Aliens for the first time is that it seems to assume it's all on us to figure out a common language. I have to admit, my assumption if that if some species is sufficiently advanced to figure out interstellar travel they'd likely be able to decypher our language and find a way for us to communicate.

By your comment it seems like you didn't watch Arrival. Maybe I'm misinterpreting that, if so please ignore. The whole point of Arrival was that we had to learn the alien language. The purpose of their arrival was to teach us their language so we could help them in the future. Had the purpose of the aliens been to spread the knowledge of their culture then it may have made sense for them to analyze and learn our lang…

I think the OP's point still stands. If aliens are traveling the universe teaching their language, you'd think they would have developed a curriculum, no?

In pretty much every alien encounter movie it's the humans working out a plan for communication from scratch. You'd think the aliens would put a little more effort into it, especially if they've been spacefaring for years. And if they haven't, wouldn't they be a lot more curious about us?

I would love to see a cinematization of Robert Forward's Dragon's Egg, which I think gets this right.

Re: A linguist on Arrival's alien language (2016)

#97

Post by vidarh »

pebblexe wrote: post #48
vidarh wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first problem here is that you mentioned Sapir-Whorf, and Saphir-Whorf does not have a precise definition. You simply be talking past people with respect to how strong a degree of relativity you are claiming. I can agree that different languages are more suitable for different purposes and affect how we express different problems. That is consistent with a very weak form of Sapir-Whorf. If that's the extent of yo…

What's the difference between 'determines' and 'influences'? I mean isn't that just a sliding scale? If a concept is incredibly difficult to formulate in a given language, could it not be said that the language has limited my thinking?

It is a sliding scale, and that's the problem. Without specifying exactly what you mean, it's impossible to say if we agree with your interpretation or not.

Re: A linguist on Arrival's alien language (2016)

#98

Post by remarkEon »

artimaeis wrote: post #76
remarkEon wrote: post #65

One thing that I think always confuses me about any science fiction work that deals with Humans meeting Aliens for the first time is that it seems to assume it's all on us to figure out a common language. I have to admit, my assumption if that if some species is sufficiently advanced to figure out interstellar travel they'd likely be able to decypher our language and find a way for us to communicate.

By your comment it seems like you didn't watch Arrival. Maybe I'm misinterpreting that, if so please ignore. The whole point of Arrival was that we had to learn the alien language. The purpose of their arrival was to teach us their language so we could help them in the future. Had the purpose of the aliens been to spread the knowledge of their culture then it may have made sense for them to analyze and learn our lang…

No no I've seen it (twice...second time was even better). I'm merely noting that it's, imo, likely that the aliens would have the ability to decipher our language and communicate with us. Should they choose not to, then they must have a reason, which like you noted was the point of the story in Arrival.

Re: A linguist on Arrival's alien language (2016)

#99

Post by [deleted] »

skizm wrote: post #25

What bothered me the most is that the way they start the "conversation" with the aliens is by using names and human concepts (walking, eating, etc.). I'm not a trained linguist or anything, but it seems to me they should start with concepts that are universal: mainly numbers. Maybe as a CS guy I'm biased (since my language is symbols and numbers), but literally every conceivable language has to contain numbers of som…

[deleted]

Re: A linguist on Arrival's alien language (2016)

#100

Post by UhUhUhUh »

It think this linguistic approach remains very superficial in that it only targets vocabulary and ways to represent it and to translate it. It does not tackle the "deep structure" the grammar that underlies and, in my belief, determines everything that sits above. Yes, I know, I'm a chomskian... I also understand that this would have propelled the narrative in a wildly weird area where most spectators would have probably gone to do some other thing than to watch. And "Arrival" is not a bad movie. I just wonder what would a truly alien language, with a truly alien underlying structure, would look like. Much more than vocabulary keys could be needed to even begin to communicate. This is also where the SW hypothesis would begin to really become hugely significant.
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