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Tamil Bell

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Re: Tamil Bell

#91

Post by danans »

The name of the ship's owner (mohayideen) is Arabic, transliterated into Tamil script. There is a well known history of the Arab trade network throughout Southeast Asia but it's fascinating that this artifact represents a fusion of Arab and Tamil culture.

It makes me ponder whether the owner of the ship was himself cross cultural.

The Arab presence in Southern India actually predates the advent of Islam, so even it's possible (though not likely) that this artifact hails from before that time.

EDIT: TFA notes that the script is datable to 500 years old so it is probably not pre-Islamic.

Re: Tamil Bell

#92

Post by Arizhel »

ganduG wrote: post #40
skrebbel wrote: post #37

> Translated, it says "Muhayideen Baksh’s ship’s bell". I like language, and this inscription makes me wonder. Why write on a bell that it's a bell? I'd be less surprised if the bell had said "Muhayideen Baksh’s ship". I mean, I get that school buildings say "School" because otherwise it's really just a building. But a bell? Isn't that a bit like writing "Headmaster's Office Door" on the headmaster's office door? I w…

Anecdotal reason: I'm Indian, and we have some high quality (and possibly expensive) utensils that have been passed down for a couple of generations. They have all have my grandad's name etched on them somewhere, as a means of identification.

That's not the issue. They're asking why the word "bell" is on there, not the person's name. The person's name makes perfect sense, at least to us English speakers. The "bell" part doesn't; it would be look your expensive utensils each having inscribed on them, "Ravi's fork" or "Ravi's spoon". You can look at it and tell it's a fork or spoon, so why would you write that piece of obvious information on there?

Re: Tamil Bell

#93

Post by BeetleB »

danans wrote: post #91

The name of the ship's owner (mohayideen) is Arabic, transliterated into Tamil script. There is a well known history of the Arab trade network throughout Southeast Asia but it's fascinating that this artifact represents a fusion of Arab and Tamil culture. It makes me ponder whether the owner of the ship was himself cross cultural. The Arab presence in Southern India actually predates the advent of Islam, so even it's…

>The name of the ship's owner (mohayideen) is Arabic, transliterated into Tamil script.

I think you'll find that today most people with that name are South Asian.

Re: Tamil Bell

#94

Post by Arizhel »

noobermin wrote: post #24
cyberferret wrote: post #5

Interesting. There has to be more evidence of other nations discovering Australia and New Zealand before the ones mentioned in our history books. Nearer to me, the Tiwi islands just off the coast of North Australia have unearthed jade figurines and artifacts that seem to originate from China or another Asian country, which date back to before the time of Captain Cook. Update: Article on early Chinese explorers reachi…

I'm from Palau, not quite all the way out to Australia and NZ, but say half way there. My memory is hazy, but I remember learning from social studies in grade school that when Europeans made first contact, they observed terraces that apparently for rice paddies which the Palauans didn't make (I think they could do that sort of thing to an extent but not quite a out of a complete hill side). When the European captain…

>That mixed with the above always lead me to believe those "gods" were just visitors from other islands or lands.

Makes you wonder if the "gods" that other religions worship(ped) were also just visitors from elsewhere with superior technology... Of course, there's no physical evidence for this, but it does make me wonder.

Re: Tamil Bell

#95

Post by _yvjs »

linuxkerneldev wrote: post #78
_yvjs wrote: post #43

here's some interesting speculation on this topic: https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2013/01/15/a-three-hour-tour/ Basically there's genetic (Y chromosome) and linguistic evidence suggesting an infusion of Indian immigration (~5000 years ago so maybe a distinct event from this). One plausible explanation is that some Dravidian seafarers crash-landed in Australia and got absorbed by the local population. From their persp…

> From their perspective it probably would have felt like sinking into savagery. This sentence is incongruous with the rest of your post. Why would you think such a thing?

The sentiment is lifted directly from the linked post.

It's hard to argue with given the subcontinent had agricultural, seafaring populations while Australian populations never made it past Paleolithic hunter-gathering.

Re: Tamil Bell

#96

Post by baudolino »

taejo wrote: post #47
kitchi wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Muhayideen Bak" i.e., the person who owned the ship from which the bell came.

Is Muhayideen related to the Arabic word "mujahideen" or is it just a coincidence that they look kind of similar?

Many words in places influenced by Arabic (or other Semitic languages) take similar forms, in this case mu_a_i_d (een is plural). Arabic has a triliteral root system and this form is a way of structuring a root to indicate the person who does the thing the root refers to. I don't know if Tamil was influenced by Arabic; in this case it could be an utter coincidence.

Re: Tamil Bell

#97

Post by danans »

danans wrote: post #91

The name of the ship's owner (mohayideen) is Arabic, transliterated into Tamil script. There is a well known history of the Arab trade network throughout Southeast Asia but it's fascinating that this artifact represents a fusion of Arab and Tamil culture. It makes me ponder whether the owner of the ship was himself cross cultural. The Arab presence in Southern India actually predates the advent of Islam, so even it's…

EDIT2: In retrospect, the surname Baksh actually suggests a Persian/Central-Asian ancestry[1], so the cultural picture of the owner is actually even more complex.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buksh

Re: Tamil Bell

#98

Post by [deleted] »

shripadk wrote: post #71
msound wrote: post #67

The Tamils originally wrote on dried palm leaves with a sharp scribe. So, if you didn't want to tear the leaf, you had to avoid straight lines and dots. That's why there are so many curves in the script. Also, one of the meanings of my first name "Mani" is literally "Bell". Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_script Also: I'm Tamil.

Interesting! I always thought "Mani" mean't "Gems". At least in Sanskrit Mani is a Bead/Gem.

[deleted]

Re: Tamil Bell

#99

Post by shas3 »

This is not implausible. Maritime Southeast Asia had trading relationships [1] with aboriginal Australians in the northern coast of Australia. It is not too surprising (still very interesting) if a ship every now and then made it to New Zealand or further. The main difference between them and the European Colonial Age is that most ships did not return. Note that there was a long Indian 'colonial age' in Southeast Asia, though it was more cultural and trade exchange with naval influence rather than remote hegemony. Likewise the Western Coast of India had maritime activity with the civilizations of Middle East, Europe, and Africa, from as long ago as the Indus Civilization. The point is that coastal Indians were reasonably adept sailors and maritime trade played a major role in South Indian and Western Indian civilization(s) and culture(s). Over several thousand years, it is not too unlikely that a few ships made their way to Australia, etc.

[1] http://blogs.bl.uk/untoldlives/2012/05/australian-aborigines...

Re: Tamil Bell

#100

Post by nindalf »

msound wrote: post #67

The Tamils originally wrote on dried palm leaves with a sharp scribe. So, if you didn't want to tear the leaf, you had to avoid straight lines and dots. That's why there are so many curves in the script. Also, one of the meanings of my first name "Mani" is literally "Bell". Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_script Also: I'm Tamil.

Does it appear as if the inscription says Muhayidun rather than Muhayideen? Obviously the script has changed with time, but that seems more like a modern du than a dee.
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