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Nevertheless, She Coded

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Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#91
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No actual data (x keeps saying y is not data) No true Scotsman *Trying to censor opposition in earlier post. If you ever wonder why people aren't taking you seriously or listening to you, that's a good start.

Damn, if only these women had also found the Wikipedia portal for logical fallacies, and also had concrete stats on workplace harassment, which is a personal, embarrassing, and highly political subject.

I'm not certain at what you're trying to get at here.

Can you elaborate?

ETA: I genuinely don't understand the parent comment.

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#92

there's no pay gap in any industry when you take into account hours worked and years of experience. Women generally work less than men and take time off to have babies, man lands on moon.

> Women generally work less than men and take time off to have babies, man lands on moon.

That's an inflammatory slur and not ok here. Since you've repeatedly broken the site guidelines in the past, we've banned your account.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13821812 and marked it off-topic.

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#93

I'm frankly quite surprised by the initial wave of comments disparaging this message. The facts are that women are poorly represented in the tech community[1], and do make less than men[2]. Any attempt to let women feel more accepted and bring about much needed change should be championed, not picked apart and belittled because you feel like you are personally being attacked when people are just asking for help. 1. h…

You really have to ask yourself: Why would women, as a cohort, make the same amount per individual as men? Do you assume that nothing can be different enough between men and women to reasonably justify the statistics?

I know of women who are paid more than me in tech, and I know why. I know of women who are paid less than me, and I can think of n reasons why.

As for sheer numbers, ask yourself: are there any industries where there are considerably fewer men than women? The answer is, of course, yes. Look at nursing. In the most gender-equitable societies on the planet, I'm talking the Norways and Swedens of the world, you'll see 80-90% female involvement in nursing. Look at construction. In those same societies, you will see almost the exact opposite, probably even greater disparities. Look at sales departments, I don't know a single woman who likes sales work, and I know at least a few who have given it a serious try. I'm sure there are some, but you won't convince me that it's the norm without hard data. On the flip side of that, I grew up with guys who love working with their hands in construction, and who like that it's honest work.

My intuition is that men and women(real, living individual men and women) are different in some way which drives them to prefer different work based on schedules, the way their job has them interact with people, the amount of solitary vs. collaborative work, work-life balance, and hosts of other complex differences.

As for harassment, I find it hard to believe that tech is a particularly bad place for it. I would believe you if you said that startups are prone to harassment (HR vacuum). Until I see a non-partisan study with an appreciable number of respondents, a consistent rubric for assessing individual situations, I will continue to believe what I see in person.

No CNET or USA Today article is going to convince me that it's a problem in itself that there is a statistical difference between the average yearly earnings of different cohorts. I'm sure married and unmarried people make different amounts of money on average. I'm sure people with and without kids make different amounts of money on average. Nothing about those statistics says that there is a discriminatory or unfair advantage. If you could prove that a major company is systematically underpaying women for work of equivalent holistic value, then it would be the case of the decade; this case has clearly never happened, because if it ever did, it would be an outrage, and at very least the people making this argument would be pointing at it every time they got a chance.

And I know you'll downvote this before reading it through, but maybe the first few open-minded people will get a chance to reflect. I can spare a few HN hivemind cohesion points.

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#94
post #42
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not rare. Everyone is telling you it's not rare! Women keep saying it's not rare! If you had any interest in looking at the issue honestly you'd know this. Computers can't teach you about the subtleties of power dynamics and politics. You only think this because you're sheltered, so please stop telling women their experiences aren't valid. Also, do you really think your own anecdote of "I stare at a screen all d…

What do you mean by "everyone is telling you it's not rare?" I read accounts of women who were treated horribly and unjustly, but certainly not by "everyone." I expect I see a post or three every month and that is rare considering there are 3.6M programmers in the US and 18.2M worldwide. I don't stare at a screen all day. I work and have worked with teams of all sizes, hiring, firing, negotiating salary, dealing with…

You know, not every woman who has bad experiences in the tech industry writes a blog post about it and puts it up on HN. A lot of us don't even bother reporting it to HR anymore, since we're well aware by now that HR exists to protect the company from lawsuits, not to protect women from harassment. And lawsuits just end up getting you informally blacklisted. I personally know a lot of women, including myself, who have faced issues with sexism and harassment in the tech industry, and most of us have either sucked it up if we decide it's not that bad, or find another job if it is. I doubt any of us would bring it up in front of a male coworker who hasn't already demonstrated that he's "safe" to talk to about these things. I think it's great that more women are feeling comfortable speaking publicly about issues in the industry, but I think many of us are still struggling not to be the nail that sticks out and gets hammered down. Why would someone put their career at risk to "educate" a coworker who has already demonstrated that he doesn't care what women say about it?

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#95
post #86

I'm going to drop a bombshell here... Maybe women just don't like coding as much as men and that's why they are "underrepresented". I'm going to drop another bombshell... Maybe it's OK that women focus on other things they prefer because specialization of labor is a good thing. Crazy thoughts, I know. I'm going to drop the biggest bombshell right now... Men have a Y chromosome, and women don't. The effects on a perso…

Read a book dude. Everything you just said is both wrong and sexist.

I don't think it's sexist to acknowledge that a lot of women just want to be moms and wives. A lot of them don't want to do complex analytical work, instead wanting to raise children. And the world looks down on them for that, like there is something wrong with them for not getting into tech. I think that is the real sexism.

I don't like it how women are taught they need to act like men. The fact is they are not men, and their uniqueness and femininity should be celebrated. Instead today we constantly compare them to men saying "your not good enough, not doing enough STEM, blah blah blah."

being a great mom is underrated, but it's an amazing contribution to her kids and society. The real sexism is society telling women there is something wrong with them for wanting to just be wives and moms.

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#96
post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read a book dude. Everything you just said is both wrong and sexist.

I don't think it's sexist to acknowledge that a lot of women just want to be moms and wives. A lot of them don't want to do complex analytical work, instead wanting to raise children. And the world looks down on them for that, like there is something wrong with them for not getting into tech. I think that is the real sexism. I don't like it how women are taught they need to act like men. The fact is they are not men,…

[deleted]

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you see that? What do you disagree with?

It's the little things. For example, the inclusion of Elizabeth Warren and McConnell's line. What McConnell did (attempt to shut down resistance of the opposite party) was wrong-headed and undemocratic, but the only thing it had to do with gender was the use of a pronoun (edit: yodon is right). Nobody would have paid much attention to it if he'd said "nevertheless he persisted", but a partisan attack was made into so…

"What McConnell did (attempt to shut down resistance of the opposite party) was wrong-headed and undemocratic, but the only thing it had to do with gender was the use of a pronoun"

If that were true, then why were the several men who spoke after her, and read the exact same letter, not disciplined?

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#98
post #15
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google Susan Fowler and/or stop being dishonest.

Susan Fowlers case is harrowing and disgusting and shows that sometimes there bad people in powerful positions who are sexist. I don't think the tone of "the world is sexist" is genuine or fair, Susan Fowlers case is notable because it's definitely the exception, not the norm. Of course I will be glad when things like that _never- happen_, but if you take the example of murders.. There is usually a huge murder proble…

"Susan Fowlers case is notable because it's definitely the exception, not the norm."

No. One of the resounding refrains after that came out was how much it wasn't the exception.

Re: Nevertheless, She Coded

#99
post #67
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one is talking about punishments or justice after the fact. You would never say a crime that occurs systematically is a non-issue because the perpetrators are punished if/when caught. PLEASE get out of the way. Stop mucking with people's fights for equality by injecting your willful ignorance.

Sex crime in Sweden is reported at higher rates than the rest of the world. This is believed to be caused by the fact that it's easy to provide evidence that will lead to conviction and trials are dealt with swiftly. The reason I bring this up is because if Women know it's normal and accepted to point out their oppressors and that justice will be had, then they will be more likely to report them and the world becomes…

Please stop.
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