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Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock

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Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock

#91
post #68

We can't afford to maintain the surface roads & bridges we already built, and tunnels are more expensive and require more maintenance by like an order of magnitude. (I made that up, but I'm pretty sure it's right, to within an order of magnitude... but if tunnels are 1000x more expensive, then I'm wrong). I can admire someone who has the resources to exclude himself from the traffic problem instead taking action to t…

The whole point is that he's working towards making tunneling cheaper. If he builds a cheaper tunneling machine, and a cheaper to operate tunnel via hyperloop, then what exactly are you complaining about?

Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock

#92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The DFW area has built 90+ miles of light rail in the last 20 years (that's just under the total amount for the Bay Area which had older systems), and it is still expanding. It's not my impression that light rail is done having regularly used the system

It's not done at all. It just hasn't been favored in a few decades - if Chomsky is accurate, as the direct result of some impressively Gilded-Age-level corruption. Even Baltimore's relatively rudimentary system is excellent, if you don't mind using a bus or your feet to get to places the train alone doesn't reach. And as we leave fossil fuels behind, the incentives will realign around what some forward-looking people…

My preferred line of argument to overcome such assumptions: My time is too valuable to waste navigating a car through traffic, and hiring a driver (permanently or per-trip) woulnd't make financial sense.

Yes, driving there may save you 10 minutes on a half-hour commute, but in the same time I'll get done 20 minutes of work/whatever.

Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock

#93
My laymen's understanding (from various documentaries & articles) is that the expensive part of tunnel construction is managing the transitions between different materials. Boring through hard rock might be slow, but hitting pockets of mud, loose rock and other things (especially when unexpected) can seriously mess up the works, and cause massive delays due to machine damage or reassessment and reinforcement/collapse mitigation.

AIUI many (most?) big TBMs are heavily bespoke systems specifically built for their planned route, and it's not unusual to just scrap them after the job is done.

So, it's not immediately clear that speeding up the 'easy' part will have a huge impact on the overall outcome, if the bulk of the time & uncertainty is in the hard bits.

I wonder if there are any currently underused means of sensing some distance ahead get advanced warning of nasty transitions?

Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock

#94
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it lowers property values close by, the noise is quite significant. So putting light rail in a tunnel would be the better option. If Musk can really lower costs, London would be a good client. I'm sure that if he could reduce construction costs for new tube lines by 80% (costs are mostly tunnels), there would be at least 4 new lines that could be approved quickly. After that, they'd still have money left over fro…

* lowers property values close by in some areas. Here in Denver, property (and rents) near the light rail are very high value and expensive. I live in an apartment that is ideally located and let me tell you I could afford a very nice house out in the suburbs for the rent I pay. edit: Additionally, the light rail here (very modern Siemens units) is orders of magnitude quieter than the major 6-lane streets and Interst…

Same in Baltimore, and our carsets are going on thirty years old. I live alongside both the light rail track and the interstate, which run mostly parallel here, and the latter is much noisier, especially when the crazy people on motorcycles use it for a racetrack.

There are relatively few residential areas very near our light rail, and those that are tend on the pricey side, although that may be more for other reasons than transit access. Where I live now is one of the few places you can live in easy walking distance of a station and pay less than $1k/mo in rent; on the other hand, my community has a poor reputation, mostly undeserved, for being a hive of drug dealers and "not our kind of people", by which is meant working-class black and white folks. A mile or so down in Clipper Mill, which is very much "our kind of people", one may confidently expect to pay $1600 or more a month to rent a tiny rowhouse, even if it's no closer to the Woodberry station than my current abode is to Cold Spring Lane.

Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock

#95
post #2

I thought the current thinking was that building more roads means that there will be more roads to use, and therefore more cars on the road. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand

Induced demand often happens, but certainly not always. It just depends on latent demand and network effects. More importantly, the appearance of induced demand is not a general argument against building roads! People get value out of getting to places. If we build road B intending to relieve congestion on road A, but road A stays just as congested, we nevertheless have enabled people to get places with road B that t…

> More importantly, the appearance of induced demand is not a general argument against building roads! People get value out of getting to places. If we build road B intending to relieve congestion on road A, but road A stays just as congested, we nevertheless have enabled people to get places with road B that they would not otherwise have been able to reach. That increases utility.

There are cases where this doesn't apply, though. For instance, building motorways into the centre of cities. Yes, it means more people can get to the centre, but now there are too many cars in the centre for anyone to move around, including much more efficient forms of transport like buses. In that case, the city is going to function better if the road was never built, and people adapted their behaviour, either to move out of suburbs closer to a higher density core, or to work outside of the central area, or to use public transport. Unless you can have some other form of regulation, for instance to enforce a minimum number of people per vehicle, then an influx of inefficient vehicles in terms of road space to utility, will clearly damage the efficiency of the transport system, and the ability for people to move around.

Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock

#96
post #42
post #20

I consider this as one of his least bright thoughts. I really hoped he would come with a light rail with shuttles carrying (electrical) cars, containers etc.. This is a thought I had some 16 years ago in an attempt to solve traffic jams. I truly believe cars shouldn't drive on highroads. Unfortunately I don't have the contacts and financial power to even get close to the people who can accomplish this. If we have a w…

The premise of what hes doing is "lets do it faster and cheaper"... If you could improve the boring process 10x, maybe people would look at digging tunnels in a completely new light!!! For example, the real problem with rail is getting right-of-way. With a cheap boring machine - your plans wouldn't be as difficult. As Musk put it, you got to think in 3D....

Actually you should think in 4D. In the future all those tunnels require maintenance that is much more complex and expensive than maintenance for surface roads. If the US is not able to keep its roads in good condition (and in many places it's not), how is building more expensive roads underground going to solve the problem long term?

Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock

#97
post #82
post #68

We can't afford to maintain the surface roads & bridges we already built, and tunnels are more expensive and require more maintenance by like an order of magnitude. (I made that up, but I'm pretty sure it's right, to within an order of magnitude... but if tunnels are 1000x more expensive, then I'm wrong). I can admire someone who has the resources to exclude himself from the traffic problem instead taking action to t…

Isn't the problem with traffic (in most places) that people are using the roads at the same time?

Yeah, pursuing a culture shift that discourages pointlessly-standardized working hours and encourages remote work when possible might even have a tangible effect on traffic.

That said traffic is often one of those unfortunate predator-prey type dynamics, where congestion being reduced often encourages more folks to drive until the system returns to an (unfortunate) equilibrium...

Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock

#98
post #63

Tunnels are not a way to fix traffic - redesigning cities is. Our cities, and the society in general is so inefficient that it borders on crimes against humanity. What we need is smaller, more efficient, better designed cities.

And before the nay-sayers come in - no one is proposing destroying entire cities and rebuilding from the ground up. Now that we have that straw man out of the way we can start talking about transit (rail, bus, bike, walk) and the immense amount of space dedicated solely to single passenger cars and trucks.

I think we'll be seeing LA's subway development as a model for the future of infrastructure.

The big problem with urban highways is that if you build the highway first and do not include higher-density transit, the neighborhood develops in a suburb-esque highway fashion, as distance of the house/apartment from the highway exit doesn't make a huge difference in commute time, whereas a train commute requires you to walk that last leg.

The issue I imagine many planners are facing is "how do we build useful, medium to high density public transit that actually serves a decent amount of people?" And it's a hard problem, because the neighborhood layouts are designed for highways. New transit projects other than highways face opposition because they don't appear useful to most of the residents.

I went to LA recently and rode the subway a bunch, into Downtown LA and back out to my friend's more suburban apartment near Universal City. Once, I took an Uber and the driver pointed out to me all of the new higher-density residential development taking place around the edges of the urban core (and noted it improved the safety of the area dramatically, "people are walking around now! no more gangs!").

Basically, the neighborhood was reshaping toward a more transit-friendly environment after some useful public transit was implemented.

The current problem is convincing cities to fund transit lines when they seem to "go to nowhere useful". If LA continues to be successful at building subways, they'll provide a great piece of evidence and support for building new higher-density transit in other cities throughout the country.

Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock

#99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you happen to have any examples of where induced demand has not happened? My understanding is that it is pretty much guaranteed, especially in larger cities. I think New York's bridges and tunnels are the canonical examples of this. I say pretty much because I assume there must be cases where it didn't happen, but I am unaware of them.

The total number miles driven on roads will almost always go up when you build more roads, just like increasing the supply of apples will lead to more apples being eaten. (The rare exceptions would be if there are a fixed number of people taking a long circuitous route from A to B, and a shortcut road is built; then the fixed number of drivers would get there more directly, reducing the total number of miles driven.)…

We have one of those dynamic price roads around here. It starts out overpriced and goes up from there. It's basically the road for the 1%. Usage has been a quite a bit lower than the estimates so the taxpayers have been on the hook for lost profits.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/nov/17/not-so-fast-...

Re: Elon Musk is boring a tunnel to skirt gridlock

#100
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The premise of what hes doing is "lets do it faster and cheaper"... If you could improve the boring process 10x, maybe people would look at digging tunnels in a completely new light!!! For example, the real problem with rail is getting right-of-way. With a cheap boring machine - your plans wouldn't be as difficult. As Musk put it, you got to think in 3D....

Actually you should think in 4D. In the future all those tunnels require maintenance that is much more complex and expensive than maintenance for surface roads. If the US is not able to keep its roads in good condition (and in many places it's not), how is building more expensive roads underground going to solve the problem long term?

Roads need maintenance almost exclusively because of the weather - sun and rain, heat and cold. Underground, none of those things. We have tunnels today that are a century old with only minimal maintenance, right?
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