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Why Silicon Valley Wouldn't Work Without Immigrants

nytimes.com

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Re: Why Silicon Valley Wouldn't Work Without Immigrants

#91

Post by Tyco »

TuringNYC wrote: post #61
Tyco wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was abrupt and it came from Trump. Those are the main reasons it's causing such a stir.

It is causing a stir because Permanent Residents (green-card holders) were being told they were no longer welcome into the country. If Permanent Residency is no longer actually permanent, and can be removed on a whim, that is incredibly stirring.

The green-card omission was a mistake, fortunately corrected relatively quickly. The majority of this action, while disheartening and inconvenient for some, is temporary. That which remains and is being declared permanent will not be so. If you haven't learned by now, look closer (and check out Scott Adams recent blog posts). He consistently starts at an extreme and works back to the position he really wants. We are only at the very beginning of this process.

Re: Why Silicon Valley Wouldn't Work Without Immigrants

#92

Post by mercutio2 »

beachstartup wrote: post #70
dxhdr wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> $60,000 in 1998 would be about $89,000 today, after adjusting for inflation. I have a hard time believing $89k is the equivalent of $60k in 1998. Gas was $1 a gallon, average rent in LA was $900, health insurance was $35 a month, DOW was at 9k.

the official inflation rate isn't accurate, as it doesn't take into consideration any of those things you just mentioned. i'd say $60k 20 years ago is more like $120k today... and that's being generous.

Each and every category, except the stock market which isn't a consumer good, that was mentioned is in fact measured quite carefully by US CPI measurements.

The poster just happened to cherry pick things that have increased faster than inflation: refined petroleum, coastal city housing, and health care.

As an aside, people's perception of health care increases are driven by factors somewhat decoupled from a reasonable measurement of actual cost increases:

- employers have steadily shifted a larger fraction of healthcare premiums onto employees

- older people's healthcare is dramatically more expensive than young people's (actuarially). The fact that everyone alive has aged 20 years means your perception of cost is dominated by the age curve, not the steady-age cost

Re: Why Silicon Valley Wouldn't Work Without Immigrants

#93

Post by Bartweiss »

true_religion wrote: post #77
steevenwee wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now, If we do set the minimum salary at that level SV will be just fine, but what about non-NYC or SV regions, who also have tech companies (believe it or not) and yet much lower income median. We will be embracing newcomers to only come to the coast, which is hardly Trump's point here.

That is what the program was designed for. I'm not really a fan of mutating legislature for other purposes. Lower wage, and high wage workers are different and a VISA program designed for one isn't going to necessarily be fair to another. Currently, employer influence of H1-Bs is high because they can essentially deport you when you get fired and you lose the life you built in the USA. That's not 'fair', but its at l…

I don't think this really gets to the issue. The median one-bedroom apartment in SF has rent 5x the median for all rentals in Indianapolis. Paying $111,000 in the midwest beats $130,000 in the Valley because you'll come out ahead after housing and taxes.

So the problem is that two-fold: hard salary cutoffs translate poorly between locations, and $130k is enough to price out most parts of the country almost entirely.

Raising the salary cut-off to $130k would basically be urban protectionism: you could hire visa workers for well-paid but unexceptional tasks in NYC, SF, and Boston, but only for exceptional expertise everywhere else.

Re: Why Silicon Valley Wouldn't Work Without Immigrants

#94

Post by ones_and_zeros »

winter_blue wrote: post #89

- Firstly, there are a bunch of false points here. The HN user ones_and_zeros lives in an alternate reality where H-1B visa holders cannot switch jobs to other companies (that are willing to transfer their H-1B visa). The fact is most tech companies will do a visa transfer. Yet, this facetious lie is oft-repeated on HN, and with attaching terms like "slavery" or "corporate welfare" (which is frankly, offensive). - Se…

Hey man, I know this is probably stressful for you and I don't want to be adding to that for you. I'd be willing to take this offline if you'd like but can you please not call me a liar, immigrant-hater, accuse me of being a ball of hatred or that I hate immigrants from the depths of my heart?

I think you know all that isn't true and I think the readers can see through those accusations and it ultimately devalues your input to the discussion.

(For the record I want an automatic green card for skilled immigrants and a higher bar for what counts as a skilled immigrant. I want a massive expansion of refugee immigration into the US. I want automatic green cards for unskilled immigration where they have created roots in the US)

Re: Why Silicon Valley Wouldn't Work Without Immigrants

#95

Post by frebord »

jdavis703 wrote: post #19

Isn't the solution to H1B abuse to just let people work anywhere they want after being granted the visa? This would then let the market determine the salary for this class of workers, and should put a stop to the abuses by big consulting firms.

I guess you could stop calling it abuse at that point, but h1b participants are coming here for better opportunities which I think will often mean they are willing to work for much less than an American. Not saying whether this is good or bad, but I think this is the real target of the current administration, to make sure Americans are getting these jobs before immigrants.

Re: Why Silicon Valley Wouldn't Work Without Immigrants

#96

Post by steevenwee »

Bartweiss wrote: post #93
true_religion wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is what the program was designed for. I'm not really a fan of mutating legislature for other purposes. Lower wage, and high wage workers are different and a VISA program designed for one isn't going to necessarily be fair to another. Currently, employer influence of H1-Bs is high because they can essentially deport you when you get fired and you lose the life you built in the USA. That's not 'fair', but its at l…

I don't think this really gets to the issue. The median one-bedroom apartment in SF has rent 5x the median for all rentals in Indianapolis. Paying $111,000 in the midwest beats $130,000 in the Valley because you'll come out ahead after housing and taxes. So the problem is that two-fold: hard salary cutoffs translate poorly between locations, and $130k is enough to price out most parts of the country almost entirely.…

Exactly the point. Let the market set the salary cut offs would be much more logical than just set salary value for the entire country.

Re: Why Silicon Valley Wouldn't Work Without Immigrants

#97

Post by davidw »

frebord wrote: post #95
jdavis703 wrote: post #19

Isn't the solution to H1B abuse to just let people work anywhere they want after being granted the visa? This would then let the market determine the salary for this class of workers, and should put a stop to the abuses by big consulting firms.

I guess you could stop calling it abuse at that point, but h1b participants are coming here for better opportunities which I think will often mean they are willing to work for much less than an American. Not saying whether this is good or bad, but I think this is the real target of the current administration, to make sure Americans are getting these jobs before immigrants.

It's a good thing that programming work is very difficult to ship over, say, the internet to other countries where they'll do it for cheaper, or have friendlier immigration policies (Canada for instance).

Truth be told, I'm actually not that concerned. The pool of good programmers, even worldwide, is not that big, and as a decent programmer, I don't feel threatened by some companies going for the absolute cheapest people they can get. I figure they'll get what they pay for and things will work out in the end.

Re: Why Silicon Valley Wouldn't Work Without Immigrants

#98

Post by dragonwriter »

jdavis703 wrote: post #19

Isn't the solution to H1B abuse to just let people work anywhere they want after being granted the visa? This would then let the market determine the salary for this class of workers, and should put a stop to the abuses by big consulting firms.

> Isn't the solution to H1B abuse to just let people work anywhere they want after being granted the visa?

The solution to H1B abuse is to abolish the visa category entirely.

The solution to "there is insufficient domestic supply of high-skill labor, and making more foreign workers available for domestic work of this kind would, with appropriate controls, produce a public benefit", if that is really the case, is to design a system with appropriate controls that does that, which probably won't look much like the H-1B program. It'll start with an analysis of the real nature and extent of the shortage, and the nature of the opportunity for public benefit.

Re: Why Silicon Valley Wouldn't Work Without Immigrants

#99

Post by [deleted] »

ones_and_zeros wrote: post #94
winter_blue wrote: post #89

- Firstly, there are a bunch of false points here. The HN user ones_and_zeros lives in an alternate reality where H-1B visa holders cannot switch jobs to other companies (that are willing to transfer their H-1B visa). The fact is most tech companies will do a visa transfer. Yet, this facetious lie is oft-repeated on HN, and with attaching terms like "slavery" or "corporate welfare" (which is frankly, offensive). - Se…

Hey man, I know this is probably stressful for you and I don't want to be adding to that for you. I'd be willing to take this offline if you'd like but can you please not call me a liar, immigrant-hater, accuse me of being a ball of hatred or that I hate immigrants from the depths of my heart? I think you know all that isn't true and I think the readers can see through those accusations and it ultimately devalues you…

[deleted]

Re: Why Silicon Valley Wouldn't Work Without Immigrants

#100

Post by dragonwriter »

Tyco wrote: post #91
TuringNYC wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is causing a stir because Permanent Residents (green-card holders) were being told they were no longer welcome into the country. If Permanent Residency is no longer actually permanent, and can be removed on a whim, that is incredibly stirring.

The green-card omission was a mistake, fortunately corrected relatively quickly. The majority of this action, while disheartening and inconvenient for some, is temporary. That which remains and is being declared permanent will not be so. If you haven't learned by now, look closer (and check out Scott Adams recent blog posts). He consistently starts at an extreme and works back to the position he really wants. We are…

> The green-card omission was a mistake,

Only in that the political backlash was unexpected, forcing the Administration to backpedal.

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