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Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

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Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#91

Post by skriticos2 »

avar wrote: post #71
educar wrote: post #5

If you still think of the world as divided into good and evil, then I have to break it to you that you have been played. Brainwashed by years and years of media programming. One man's terrorist is another man's hero. The U.S routinely bombs other sovereign countries and this is show cased as a "hero" activity. If the bombed people retaliate, they are terrorists. The truth is not black/white. Same way U.S data surveil…

Here's a thought experiment you can use to clarify the difference between good & evil: What would each side in a conflict do if they had overwhelming power? We have plenty of evidence to see what the US would do. When they defeated Germany & Japan at the end of WWII did they enslave their people? Use their nuclear advantage to conquer new lands and colonize them? No, they rebuilt their economies and tried to ensure t…

The US actions after WWII in the peace negotiations weren't as altruistic as you are trying to make out. In fact it was a reaction to the disastrous result of the peace negotiations after WWI, which greatly contributed to WWII, and with the USSR being what it was and everyone building nukes they probably thought WWIII was not in their interest. Building up western Europe was a strong force against the USSR and a convenient buffer zone.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#92

Post by csallen »

avar wrote: post #71
educar wrote: post #5

If you still think of the world as divided into good and evil, then I have to break it to you that you have been played. Brainwashed by years and years of media programming. One man's terrorist is another man's hero. The U.S routinely bombs other sovereign countries and this is show cased as a "hero" activity. If the bombed people retaliate, they are terrorists. The truth is not black/white. Same way U.S data surveil…

Here's a thought experiment you can use to clarify the difference between good & evil: What would each side in a conflict do if they had overwhelming power? We have plenty of evidence to see what the US would do. When they defeated Germany & Japan at the end of WWII did they enslave their people? Use their nuclear advantage to conquer new lands and colonize them? No, they rebuilt their economies and tried to ensure t…

On one hand, I think that's a great thought experiment. You're right, there are nuances here, and oversimplifying into good vs evil doesn't serve anyone well.

On the other hand, it's sort of a disingenuous thought experiment, because everyone is already in 100% agreement that Nazi Germany, ISIS, Saddam, etc are morally awful. However we've been brainwashed into thinking that we're saints. So which perception is it that needs correcting?

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#93

Post by bmmayer1 »

avar wrote: post #71
educar wrote: post #5

If you still think of the world as divided into good and evil, then I have to break it to you that you have been played. Brainwashed by years and years of media programming. One man's terrorist is another man's hero. The U.S routinely bombs other sovereign countries and this is show cased as a "hero" activity. If the bombed people retaliate, they are terrorists. The truth is not black/white. Same way U.S data surveil…

Here's a thought experiment you can use to clarify the difference between good & evil: What would each side in a conflict do if they had overwhelming power? We have plenty of evidence to see what the US would do. When they defeated Germany & Japan at the end of WWII did they enslave their people? Use their nuclear advantage to conquer new lands and colonize them? No, they rebuilt their economies and tried to ensure t…

Right.

The record of history is pretty clear that world powers can and have acted within a broad latitude of barbarity towards weaker nations, mostly on the 'barbaric' end of the spectrum.

The record of history is also pretty clear that the US is the most docile and harmless of world powers that has ever existed. There's a reason we call it the Pax Americana--the 'overwhelming power' of the US has contributed to the peace, freedom and wealth of billions of people around the globe who aren't American. Let's compare that record with a random 'world superpower' selection:

- Ancient Rome (constant war on the frontiers, relentless expansionism and imperialism)

- Umayyad Caliphate (forced conversion by the sword, constant aggression towards neighbors)

- Genghis Khan (mass murdering, raping, genocidal maniac)

- the British Empire (slave trade, colonial domination)

- The Soviet Union (worldwide support and funding of mass murderer by proxy)

There has to be some perspective when talking about the US's role as the world police. There will always be a world superpower, and that superpower has the power to exercise restraint and civility when dealing with other nations. On that front 20th to 21st century America has taken an active role in:

- Stabilizing world order through active involvement in mediating inter-national conflicts (League of Nations, then the United Nations)

- Promoting globalization, free trade and free flow of capital and people amongst the nations of the world, including rival powers like Russia and China

- Protecting NATO allies from the specter of the Soviet Union (for decades a very real threat to international peace, prosperity & stability)

- Preventing the proliferation of nuclear weapons which have apocalyptic potential to end life as we know it

Now, it's hard to see how our (many admittedly unjustified) interventions in various regimes and countries throughout history outweighs the remarkable achievements of the Pax Americana. It would be hard to find another world superpower in history that comes anywhere close to the US in terms of stable, safe, prosperous and peaceful world governance.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#95

Post by wz1000 »

avar wrote: post #71
educar wrote: post #5

If you still think of the world as divided into good and evil, then I have to break it to you that you have been played. Brainwashed by years and years of media programming. One man's terrorist is another man's hero. The U.S routinely bombs other sovereign countries and this is show cased as a "hero" activity. If the bombed people retaliate, they are terrorists. The truth is not black/white. Same way U.S data surveil…

Here's a thought experiment you can use to clarify the difference between good & evil: What would each side in a conflict do if they had overwhelming power? We have plenty of evidence to see what the US would do. When they defeated Germany & Japan at the end of WWII did they enslave their people? Use their nuclear advantage to conquer new lands and colonize them? No, they rebuilt their economies and tried to ensure t…

Yes, I would prefer a US hegemony over an ISIS hegemony. The comparison itself is ridiculous.

But saying that the US has not used its military strength for its own benefit and at the expense of the people of other countries is ridiculous.

The US staged a coup in Guatemala at the behest of the United Fruit Company, when the democratically elected Prime Minister of Guatemala wanted to end UFCs exploitative labor practices. This ultimately led to the US backed genocide of the Mayas in Guatemala.

The US supported the Contras in Nicaragua and blatantly violated the sovereignty of the nation for its own interests, and was found to be violating international law. The ICJ demanded reparations for the human rights violations Nicaragua, which the US refused.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guatemalan_genocide

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1954_Guatemalan_coup_d'%C3%A9t...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaragua_v._United_States#U.S...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaragua_v._United_States#U.S...

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#96

Post by ivanhoe »

educar wrote: post #5

If you still think of the world as divided into good and evil, then I have to break it to you that you have been played. Brainwashed by years and years of media programming. One man's terrorist is another man's hero. The U.S routinely bombs other sovereign countries and this is show cased as a "hero" activity. If the bombed people retaliate, they are terrorists. The truth is not black/white. Same way U.S data surveil…

>One man's terrorist is another man's hero.

That "another man" is brainwashed too. Everyone's brainwashed by their local media and not just that, but we all are deeply biased because, at a personal level, we all look at our own interests first. Countries do the same. And since the planet is only this big, those interests quickly come in conflict with other side's plans and then countries do nasty things justifying them with "national interests". That's just how the world works...

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#97

Post by prawn »

mulmen wrote: post #87
starik36 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure what your point is in bringing Iran, maybe its to blame the US for the current situation there. Keep in mind that 1953 was over 60 years ago. To keep on blaming US for acts committed that long ago and apply to today...well, it's ridiculous.

How is it ridiculous when our actions then and since have consistently destabilized the region? Our actions then are still felt today.

Exactly. 60 years is 2-3 generations growing up with that recent history in mind.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#98

Post by cyberferret »

3131s wrote: post #41
csallen wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you still think of the world as divided into good and evil, then I have to break it to you that you have been played. People don't know the half of it, and in my experience, they don't want to know. It's comforting to feel like the good guys. The media is complicit, in that it intentionally leaves out relevant facts that might make us look bad. For example, take Iran. In 1953, we overthrew their democratically-e…

> Our "defense" of Vietnam. And most people only think of Vietnam itself regarding that conflict, yet Cambodia and Laos were absolutely decimated too. The US dropped more tons of bombs on Laos and Cambodia individually than the combined amount dropped by the allied forces in WWII. There are still 80 million unexploded bombs in the Laos countryside. Landmines sold by the US and China to the Lon Nol government and the…

Yep, I have a friend who worked for a couple of years as a teacher in Laos. He said that there are still many children killed or maimed by unexploded ordinance there each year. Two full generations away from the actual war, and they still pay for it with their blood.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#99

Post by bayesian_horse »

chinathrow wrote: post #85
starik36 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure what your point is in bringing Iran, maybe its to blame the US for the current situation there. Keep in mind that 1953 was over 60 years ago. To keep on blaming US for acts committed that long ago and apply to today...well, it's ridiculous.

I strongly disagree: it's not ridiculous at all when it comes to war crimes or crimes against humanity. Also, Iran was one example, the list of U.S. aggressions against sovereign nations without U.N. mandate goes on up to very recent times (Syria).

The system of getting UN mandates has become useless because Russia is both on the security council and an offender of the rules it was supposed to defend.

By all rights, there should be a UN mandate to fight IS in Syria. There should have been a UN mandate to fight the Assad regime, for that matter. Not intervening did not lead to less destabilization, just to more war crimes by the original regime.

Re: Thousands of deadly U.S. military airstrikes have gone unreported

#100

Post by js8 »

skriticos2 wrote: post #91
avar wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a thought experiment you can use to clarify the difference between good & evil: What would each side in a conflict do if they had overwhelming power? We have plenty of evidence to see what the US would do. When they defeated Germany & Japan at the end of WWII did they enslave their people? Use their nuclear advantage to conquer new lands and colonize them? No, they rebuilt their economies and tried to ensure t…

The US actions after WWII in the peace negotiations weren't as altruistic as you are trying to make out. In fact it was a reaction to the disastrous result of the peace negotiations after WWI, which greatly contributed to WWII, and with the USSR being what it was and everyone building nukes they probably thought WWIII was not in their interest. Building up western Europe was a strong force against the USSR and a conv…

Are you saying that if altruism (helping others) is a rational thing to do, then it's not really altruism? I find that argument a little strange.
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