China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network • Hacker News Board

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#91

Post by sandworm101 » Mon, Jan 16, 2017, 5:38 PM UTC

mtw wrote: post #87

sandworm101 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what percentage of the population actually uses a bullet train in a given week/month/year? (Not trips/population, the percentage of people who take one or more journies in a given timeframe.) Is this just a service for the urban elite? Or do farmers also use them? The 747 and like jets made air travel affordable and now air travel is cheaper than by boat/rail over long distances (for people, taking into account f…

This is wrong. High speed rail networks in France are profitable. Please do some research

I have. I bought tickets and they were very expensive. Im flying vancouver-sf round trip next month for 1/3 the price i paid for london-paris a few years back.

Doing the math again today, round trip paris-london on eurostar is 600$ in my money (320bp on eurostar site +fees +conversion to cad, leaving next monday). Vancouver-sf by air can he had for 275$ (corporate account, no visible discount).

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#92

Post by neolefty » Mon, Jan 16, 2017, 5:42 PM UTC

nacc wrote: post #78

As someone who grew in China, I just want to point out that besides the engineering, it is a political wonder as well. Before the bullet train network was built, China already has an extensive railway network. The first step is to run the bullet train on traditional railways, with a peak speed of 180km/h. People think it's great. No objections. But to raise the speed further, a new network has to be built, almost sid…

I have ridden those trains (spent 2011-2016 in China), and they're pretty great, but they're hard to justify economically:

> The overall bill is already high. China Railway Corporation, the state-owned operator of the train system, has debts of more than 4trn yuan, equal to about 6% of GDP. Strains were evident last year when China Railway Materials, an equipment-maker, was forced to restructure part of its debts. Six lines have started to make operating profits (ie, not counting construction costs), with the Beijing-Shanghai link the world’s most profitable bullet train, pulling in 6.6bn yuan last year. But in less populated areas, they are making big losses. A state-run magazine said the line between Guangzhou and the province of Guizhou owes 3bn yuan per year in interest payments—three times more than it makes from ticket sales.

I wish it weren't so, but they look like Iridium, as mentioned by a very-downvoted comment. The builder makes enormous losses.

But they're built now, and that isn't going to be undone. I hope.

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#93

Post by sandworm101 » Mon, Jan 16, 2017, 5:43 PM UTC

whyileft wrote: post #88

sandworm101 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what percentage of the population actually uses a bullet train in a given week/month/year? (Not trips/population, the percentage of people who take one or more journies in a given timeframe.) Is this just a service for the urban elite? Or do farmers also use them? The 747 and like jets made air travel affordable and now air travel is cheaper than by boat/rail over long distances (for people, taking into account f…

Air transportation is only more affordable for a very small portion of the travelers who get the highly discounted fairs. On aggregate of costs for all travelers air travel is more expensive. As the other comment stated, please do some research before openly spreading false information. Its very dishonest and in the end leads to great damage for countries.

My reciepts say otherwise. When planning trips to europe from NA the train options between cities end up costing almost as much as the intercontinental flight. Jumping on a discount airline from a secondary airport is ussually the cheaper option.

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#94

Post by gpderetta » Mon, Jan 16, 2017, 5:43 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #91

mtw wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is wrong. High speed rail networks in France are profitable. Please do some research

I have. I bought tickets and they were very expensive. Im flying vancouver-sf round trip next month for 1/3 the price i paid for london-paris a few years back. Doing the math again today, round trip paris-london on eurostar is 600$ in my money (320bp on eurostar site +fees +conversion to cad, leaving next monday). Vancouver-sf by air can he had for 275$ (corporate account, no visible discount).

Every time I made the trip, the train London-Paris was cheaper than the corresponding air travel (and significantly more pleasant).

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#95

Post by nacc » Mon, Jan 16, 2017, 5:48 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #86

nacc wrote: post #78

As someone who grew in China, I just want to point out that besides the engineering, it is a political wonder as well. Before the bullet train network was built, China already has an extensive railway network. The first step is to run the bullet train on traditional railways, with a peak speed of 180km/h. People think it's great. No objections. But to raise the speed further, a new network has to be built, almost sid…

But what percentage of the population actually uses a bullet train in a given week/month/year? (Not trips/population, the percentage of people who take one or more journies in a given timeframe.) Is this just a service for the urban elite? Or do farmers also use them? The 747 and like jets made air travel affordable and now air travel is cheaper than by boat/rail over long distances (for people, taking into account f…

The ticket price of the bullet train is usually cheaper than by air (and the train is much, much more convenient than flights), and affortable by average citizens. This has created a huge headache to the airlines, which leads to some healthy competition.

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#96

Post by allemagne » Mon, Jan 16, 2017, 5:51 PM UTC

jarboot wrote: post #67

Currently in China and frequently using the train system here. I really wish something like this could happen in a country as big as the US. What's stopping them? Politicians? Land rights? Lack of resources?

The U.S. has about the same amount of land area as China and less than a third of the population. The rail network in the graphic provided in the article mostly avoids the Tibetan plateau, and so basically covers only very populated areas with relatively friendly terrain (notable exception of Urumqi).

http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/china/geog/populationdensityma...

http://www.cgiar-csi.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/2012-10-...

Making network for the entire U.S. with those parameters seems almost impossible. You're either plowing through the Rockies or a desert to reach and go through areas an order of magnitude less populous than, say, Kunming or Chengdu.

That's not to say that the USA shouldn't build a comparable network, that it wouldn't necessarily be profitable, or it wouldn't bring a worthwhile benefit. However, there are real obstacles that don't necessarily point the finger at political differences.

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#97

Post by mozumder » Mon, Jan 16, 2017, 5:53 PM UTC

neolefty wrote: post #92

nacc wrote: post #78

As someone who grew in China, I just want to point out that besides the engineering, it is a political wonder as well. Before the bullet train network was built, China already has an extensive railway network. The first step is to run the bullet train on traditional railways, with a peak speed of 180km/h. People think it's great. No objections. But to raise the speed further, a new network has to be built, almost sid…

I have ridden those trains (spent 2011-2016 in China), and they're pretty great, but they're hard to justify economically: > The overall bill is already high. China Railway Corporation, the state-owned operator of the train system, has debts of more than 4trn yuan, equal to about 6% of GDP. Strains were evident last year when China Railway Materials, an equipment-maker, was forced to restructure part of its debts. Si…

Are these supposed to make a profit? Isn't this a state-run project, like highways?

Aren't the debts covered by the state anyways, via taxes?

Also, economic justifications are broad concepts.. how would it compare against a country like the US that has oil and people can therefore drive cars for cheap, whereas China doesn't have oil?

Is high-speed rail a more economically efficient system than cars?

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#98

Post by FabHK » Mon, Jan 16, 2017, 5:54 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #93

whyileft wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Air transportation is only more affordable for a very small portion of the travelers who get the highly discounted fairs. On aggregate of costs for all travelers air travel is more expensive. As the other comment stated, please do some research before openly spreading false information. Its very dishonest and in the end leads to great damage for countries.

My reciepts say otherwise. When planning trips to europe from NA the train options between cities end up costing almost as much as the intercontinental flight. Jumping on a discount airline from a secondary airport is ussually the cheaper option.

Can't compare prices in Europe with China.

Also, European rail operators now do what airlines have done for a long time: discounted tickets if you book a fixed train early, expensive tickets if you book last minute or with full flexibility.

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#99

Post by nacc » Mon, Jan 16, 2017, 5:59 PM UTC

neolefty wrote: post #92

nacc wrote: post #78

As someone who grew in China, I just want to point out that besides the engineering, it is a political wonder as well. Before the bullet train network was built, China already has an extensive railway network. The first step is to run the bullet train on traditional railways, with a peak speed of 180km/h. People think it's great. No objections. But to raise the speed further, a new network has to be built, almost sid…

I have ridden those trains (spent 2011-2016 in China), and they're pretty great, but they're hard to justify economically: > The overall bill is already high. China Railway Corporation, the state-owned operator of the train system, has debts of more than 4trn yuan, equal to about 6% of GDP. Strains were evident last year when China Railway Materials, an equipment-maker, was forced to restructure part of its debts. Si…

It's a very fine line to walk though: too much profit, people hate it (it's taking money from them), run at a loss, people hate it (it's a waste of tax money).

But since it is built and owned by the government, the economical benefit is also in the equation other than operation profit. A province would welcome the bullet train network even if it has to pay, if it attracts a capital influx to the province. This is usually true: given the convenience of taking the train, a city get connected means you are almost merged into a mega city, economically.

Right now the bullet train is for passenger, but cargo trains are on the timeline now. Think of goods shipped by train but arrive almost as fast as by air: this alone would make the investment a bit worthier than it looks.

Re: China has built the world’s largest bullet-train network

#100

Post by FabHK » Mon, Jan 16, 2017, 5:59 PM UTC

sandworm101 wrote: post #91

mtw wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is wrong. High speed rail networks in France are profitable. Please do some research

I have. I bought tickets and they were very expensive. Im flying vancouver-sf round trip next month for 1/3 the price i paid for london-paris a few years back. Doing the math again today, round trip paris-london on eurostar is 600$ in my money (320bp on eurostar site +fees +conversion to cad, leaving next monday). Vancouver-sf by air can he had for 275$ (corporate account, no visible discount).

You can get a round-trip on the Eurostar for USD 140 in Economy, maybe USD 200 for popular departure times. That brings you right in the middle of the city, unlike a flight. There's a reason the Eurostar is popular.