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Just how smart is an octopus?

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Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#91

Post by chc »

virmundi wrote: post #81
cicero wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Christianity (at least Catholicism) has an animal ethic that is not man-made, but comes from divine revelation. Genesis says that man is given the responsibility to care for creation, and while since the time of the flood we have permission to eat animals, the general (at least Catholic) interpretation is that doesn't mean we can be cruel to animals. In other words, if we have a reasonable need to kill an animal for…

I agree. In the comment above I played it from two world views. The one you espouse is the same (or similar enough) as the Christian view I mentioned. The agnostic view is there since I think, or at least assume, the majority of people on HN are agnostic. From such a view point, there is no tenable, logical reason that one should not eat meat or, in this specific case, a creature of intelligence. Such an argument com…

This seems a bit ethnocentric. Judeo-Christianity did bring some novel moral requirements, but the ones that it shares with most agnostics and atheists are not Judeo-Christian inventions. For example, Buddhists have been practicing compassion without any need for the Hebrew god for thousands of years, and Jains are some of the most extreme animal rights wonks you'll meet.

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#92

Post by Pigo »

komali2 wrote: post #64

Total anecdote here, but when I volunteered at our aquarium in Charleston, SC (amazing aquarium, go check it out), we had a problem where our flounder were vanishing from their tank. We suspected theft and so put a camera up in the back room. The next time flounder disappeared we checked the feed - one of our octopi was escaping from his tank that we thought we had already anti-octopus'd, climbing over the walls, bre…

I would love to see that footage. I've seen videos of them solving simple problems, but I've never seen them go all MacGyver. The way their described makes me think of our local raccoons, shifty, conniving and sort of belligerent. You have to respect their audacity and resolve.

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#93

Post by Cybiote »

ch4s3 wrote: post #3
overcast wrote: post #2

Way to make me feel worse about eating them.

Well pigs are smarter than dogs, and many people eat them.

Yep, pigs are highly intelligent. They've been shown to be able to learn how to use mirrors to locate food, are possibly capable of theory of mind, deception and visual perspective taking. Some of these can be disputed as associative learning but we're also finding out that the same can also be said of aspects of higher human cognition. And from work in machine learning, we know how far even just associative learning and pattern matching can take you.

This is a short survey article that goes into more detail on pig intelligence: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960982210...

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#95

Post by deeth_starr »

hamitron wrote: post #7
overcast wrote: post #2

Way to make me feel worse about eating them.

Last time I was in Hawaii, I had the opportunity to interact with an octopus in the wild. I will never eat one again.

Same here. I was on the Big Island snorkeling. I was chasing a fish and dove down to the bottom when all of a sudden an octopus uncloaked and inked me. Without thinking I just started bird dogging him. Eventually it started shaking in fear (my assumption) and couldn't cloak. I felt bad for stressing it so much and broke off the chase. It's pretty amazing to look into their eyes. There is definitely something going on there.

It's pretty sad what we are doing to the oceans.

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#96

Post by jdmichal »

virmundi wrote: post #81
cicero wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Christianity (at least Catholicism) has an animal ethic that is not man-made, but comes from divine revelation. Genesis says that man is given the responsibility to care for creation, and while since the time of the flood we have permission to eat animals, the general (at least Catholic) interpretation is that doesn't mean we can be cruel to animals. In other words, if we have a reasonable need to kill an animal for…

I agree. In the comment above I played it from two world views. The one you espouse is the same (or similar enough) as the Christian view I mentioned. The agnostic view is there since I think, or at least assume, the majority of people on HN are agnostic. From such a view point, there is no tenable, logical reason that one should not eat meat or, in this specific case, a creature of intelligence. Such an argument com…

I'd like to note that agnosticism and theism are not opposing. Agnosticism simply declares that you view the existence and / or properties of one or more deities as unknowable [0]. That is not incompatible with theism. In fact, I argue that such is the definition of faith -- to believe despite not knowing.

[0] Or, for weak agnosticism, currently unknown.

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#97

Post by jwtadvice »

I'm reminded of Paul the Octopus in the Sea Life Centre in Germany, who at least reportedly likes watching soccer. Crowds have taken to watching his behavior like an aquatic Punxsutawney Phil - looking for signs of Paul feeling optimistic or depressed - and leading crowds through an exercise to imagine that Paul is able to predict the outcomes of games.

While not really equipt with fortune-telling capabilities, Paul and most other octopi (as aquarists will share) have very distinct personalities, have favorite caretakers they can individually recognize, and in the wild will save food, trade rocks and have learned to pull diving masks off humans who bother them.

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#98

Post by mccoyspace »

jnbiche wrote: post #37
ch4s3 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well pigs are smarter than dogs, and many people eat them.

Yeah, but a dog's got personality. Personality goes a long way.

As a kid in 4H I raised purebred Duroc and showed them at the Evergreen State Fair. You had to train them to respond to cane taps, move right and left, stop start, strike standard poses so the judges could rate breed characteristics, etc. I can assure you that a healthy, well-cared for pig has plenty of personality.

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#99

Post by lostlogin »

bduerst wrote: post #53
enugu wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apart from cognitive skills, an important factor is the capacity of suffering. So even dumb animals might be able to feel intense pain. In humans, while forms of suffering like loneliness, depression can be bad, pure physical pain can itself a terrible thing. For instance severe torture for 10 minutes can be worse than months of depression. Now even if cognitive aspects are diminished in animals, the physical senses…

Cephalopods are the only invertebrates that are banned from certain types of research because of this.

Guidelines or laws and where? My Googling shows Canada having laws for Cephalopods, the U.K. for octopodes (I read the above Greek guide) and the EU considering them. To my amusement the Nature article (2011) mentions researchers complaining at potential paperwork burden and that some research might not be allowed.

Are the laws new?

Re: Just how smart is an octopus?

#100

Post by virmundi »

chc wrote: post #83
virmundi wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why worry? They'd eat you. Realize that all animal ethics are entirely manmade and foreign to the background of the Universe's amorality. Edit: Really down voting because you don't agree? The comment was on topic, provided a view, and contributed to the conversation in some way. If you want to down vote, please be responsible enough to say why.

This seems fundamentally to be an argument against ethics in general. Whatever your personal values may be, a viewpoint that would justify nearly any atrocity is not very useful.

It is an argument against an absolute truth. Ironically, the absolute truth is, under an agnostic view, there is no Truth.

Every ethics system that we have is a might makes right. People need to realize this. When someone makes any ethics claim they have to realize that it is at best only useful for a specific location and point in time. Eating animals or not is a preference. Who we keep alive and who we don't is too.

What I wanted to make people think about is why they hold their views. What assumptions are they making? Are those assumptions sound?

For example, why not kill people for food? Best argument I can have from an amoral background (the universe created ducks that rape and hamsters that eat their young) is it destabilizes a society. The assumption is that society is good. Therefore anything that makes it worse, is bad.

An interesting thing to ponder are questions like "Is society good?" Could we have limited cannibalism? Would that make society more stable?

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