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The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

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Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#91

Post by wyager »

dlo wrote: post #69
CardenB wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong or boring about any of the things you mentioned? What would you do differently?

It's a shame to waste an elite education on people who do not serve society.

> It's a shame to waste an elite education on people who do not serve society.

Have you considered that you may not be as good as you think at predicting the needs of society? Based on past experiments, it seems that the market does a pretty good job of predicting what society actually wants and needs, whereas enlightened do-gooders aren't as good as they think.

The upside is that there is lots of cheap soviet surplus technology available even today, because the englightened folks in charge of soviet production focused a bit too much on the first-order "needs" of soviet society like Mosin Nagants and Nixie Tubes, whereas those foolish and vain Americans were wasting their time and elite educations following market demands for frivolous things that didn't serve society, like Color TV and food production beyond subsistence.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#92

Post by DocSavage »

dlo wrote: post #73
CardenB wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong or boring about any of the things you mentioned? What would you do differently?

There's a lot of human trafficking in Oakland, a short BART ride away from SF. With so much problem-solving ability in nearby SF, why is this still a problem? So are homelessness, childhood hunger, etc And why do we crowd around in the Bay Area, pushing out artists and other people? Why don't we spread out across the U.S., spreading ideas and doing good?

I think you are stereotyping Stanford grads, particularly older ones. There are plenty of Stanford grads outside the US as well as on East Coast, etc. There are also plenty of Stanford grads in medical and science careers.

By the time he's done, Bill Gates will have done more to impact disease and save lives in the world than probably thousands of your volunteers, yet he was a techie that built a start-up and sounds like the people you deride. Not everyone has to walk the paths you've set out as the proper way to do good in the world. And sometimes it comes later in life.

The problem with the article to me is that the author makes a lot of assumptions, maybe because of his upbringing and his lack of social intelligence. Not every one looks down on people of different social or wealth classes, particularly students who come from lower income or homes with less educated parents.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#93

Post by wyager »

dlo wrote: post #73
CardenB wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong or boring about any of the things you mentioned? What would you do differently?

There's a lot of human trafficking in Oakland, a short BART ride away from SF. With so much problem-solving ability in nearby SF, why is this still a problem? So are homelessness, childhood hunger, etc And why do we crowd around in the Bay Area, pushing out artists and other people? Why don't we spread out across the U.S., spreading ideas and doing good?

Humans are bad at multiplying utilities. Building a service that gives $100 of utility to ten million people is probably better for society than improving the nutrition of a few hundred children in SF. People tend to over-value charitable endeavors that fall into certain categories, like helping the homeless or feeding the children. I suspect it's a societal mechanism for encouraging practical charity that was a lot more effective before our current age of plenty.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#94

Post by sidek »

egocodedinsol wrote: post #34

Before this gets flagged to oblivion, I have one criticism and two defenses of the article. As a criticism, this article doesn't address the sciences. The availability of research money is a major reason to go to an elite science institution. If you want to do science, the best thing is to do it, and that usually means email a lab and asking to work there. More labs with more money probably means better opportunities…

Yeah, I often say "in Massachusetts" when people ask where I go to school, when I'm back home. Everyone seems to think this is a mark of how snooty Harvardians are.

But often when I did just say "Harvard", it became a big deal. Not always, but often.

It can make social situations weird. I socialise with a lot of people who are in the trades. I've had more than a few conversations killed when the person I'm talking with finds out I go to Harvard. Suddenly (again sometimes, not always) the person feels embarrassed because they aren't an intellectual, or unrefined, or something, and the conversation gets awkward fast.

It can also make some people just overestimate or overcare for you. I used to volunteer for a political party. The local organiser was nice and treated me well, like he treated everybody, but once he found out I went to Harvard he decided to give me double the attention, plus the cushy assignments, I guess in hopes of retaining me-- when really I just wanted to do the door knocking and phone calling like everyone else.

I wish that the name of the place I go to school didn't have cultural cachet far beyond its worth and that I could always just say it. But it does, especially where I'm from, where not many people have been anywhere near an Ivy. So sometimes I decide to not risk triggering this weird overblown cultural image, because I just want to be myself and not "that guy who goes to HARVARD". Many of my friends feel similarly. I don't know how this desire counts as noblesse oblige.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#95

Post by kalid »

danharaj wrote: post #88
kalid wrote: post #78

Much of this resonated with me. One of the biggest lessons of my Ivy-league education was, paradoxically, that it wasn't sufficient (or even necessary). At least not for the goals I wanted. If you want access to the elite Wall St. or consulting jobs, then yes, you need it. Once you're in, it's almost impossible to be kicked out. Finish, interview, and you're on the path. But I had longstanding doubts about the state…

The link you provided seems to omit the fact that i^i is multi-valued, which is a consequence of a fundamental property of the logarithm.

That's true, let's just go with the principal value for now :).

(I hadn't studied complex analysis when I wrote that post, learning it now. The various possibilities for the multi-valued solution follow a pattern however.)

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#96

Post by edblarney »

Mz wrote: post #11

The remarks here on HN dissing this article piqued my curiosity, so I began to read the article. It's been a long ..year...and I am super tired, so I am not going to manage to actually read the whole thing. But, I was one of the top three students of my graduating high school class and I turned down a National Merit Scholarship to one of the top two universities of my home state. I think I made the right call and I t…

If you didn't know you were 'upper class' then you were definitely not, although I grasp what you are saying.

'Upper class' means generational wealth and status, your grandfather was wealthy, a diplomat, and admiral, head of a large multinational, and you can trace your lineage back at least 8 generations, and likely back to before you were even Americans ... your family has had status for that long.

But yes - some people have 'high standards of behaviour', are genteel, polite, articulate, conscientious, well mannered etc. but don't have a lot of money. Many upper-middle class, even middle class types were like this just a generation and a half ago. I suggest fewer people are exactly that now, as the mores of society have shifted quite a lot in many ways.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#97

Post by edblarney »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #46
Mz wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brits also are much more okay with embracing the idea that there are separate classes. Americans like to think we are better than that and (like to imagine that we) treat all people in some idealized egalitarian fashion. In practice, it is a lot, lot harder to treat everyone equally well and try to ignore class divides than to have protocols in place for bridging the gap between people explicitly of different classes…

It's entertaining how far we in the states go in denying we have classes. Some years back a blogger tried to cook up a taxonomy of our class system. Since we don't have words to describe them he adopted archaic Indian terms instead. Brahmins are the NY/CA elite, Vaisyas are the Trump voting worker caste, etc. https://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2007/05/castes... Other writers have recognized and described i…

"It's entertaining how far we in the states go in denying we have classes."

America does have 'classes' but they are completely different from the type of class system you'll find in the 'old world'.

Many self-made Americans would consider themselves 'upper class', by virtue of wealth, status and behaviour. But classically, you really can't 'move' into class, you pretty much have to be born into it. Or possibly marry into it.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#98

Post by nickonline »

gragas wrote: post #82
nickonline wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'just'?

How is it not "just" ending up at Facebook or Google when you could've BS'd your way through high school, gone to a mediocre state school, and landed a new-grad position at one of those companies? Stanford or X State University, suddenly all of those years mean nothing and new graduates of both schools come to the same starting blocks, only this time at a massive software company where tens of thousands of others fol…

Arguably it doesn't matter whether you went to Stanford or your state university, the institution where you graduated matters little in the professional world once you have that first gig.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#99

Post by douche »

I feel like I am in a weird, interesting situation. I grew up as a complete redneck, rural, appalachian hillbilly, despite all efforts of my jumped-up grandmother to try to instill some European class. I proudly wore my Haines' T-shirts and Carharts pants, with steel-toed, kevlar-lined chainsaw boots for years... I graduated high school in such a Beverly Hillbullies environment, then got accepted, against my expectations, at Dartmouth (they must have been low on the rural white boy quota that year...) I showed up in Hanover, NH, my first day with my pickup, my chainsaw, my rifle & shotgun, and a full set or mechanic's tools.

It was a pretty impressive example of culture shock. I'm better for having escaped the Franklin County, Maine, bubble and experiencing it, but it took some adjusting.

Re: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education (2008)

#100

Post by edblarney »

BipolarElsa wrote: post #3

This article is utter rubbish. Anyone who possesses an elite education will never suffer in their life. They're in the upper-echelon of society. I have no pity for them and they are not at a disadvantage. Go ahead an ask anyone accepted into Yale if they'd trade it off for the same major at po-dunk State U. What do you think their response will be? Don't be daft. This is trash.

"Anyone who possesses an elite education will never suffer in their life"

This is not fair to say. Many, if not most ivy leagues go onto have relatively normal lives.

I have a friend in Vermont who went to Yale. She is a 'marketing manager'. I don't even think she could pay for her education unless her (doctor) father did.

I took a tour of Stanford, the girl went to Dartmouth. I don't think the people giving recruiting tours of Stanford earn all that much.

Surely, it opens a lot of doors, and there are probably industries in which it can give one a cosy path, but it's not the 'guarantee' of anything.

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