Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Jobs on Flash: Hypocrisy So Thick You Could Cut it with a Knife

osnews.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 119 posts

Re: Jobs on Flash: Hypocrisy So Thick You Could Cut it with a Knife

#91

Post by KirinDave »

VictorHo wrote: post #47
pohl wrote: post #2

I wish I knew why the concept of hypocrisy is so difficult to grasp that people are prone to apply it incorrectly. Maybe people just don't understand when someone is making a moral statement, and when someone isn't. The claim here appears to be that since Apple ships Windows apps that don't use that platform to its fullest, Jobs cannot claim that least-common-denominator middleware is unhealthy for a platform. That m…

From dictionary.com: hy·poc·ri·sy [hi-pok-ruh-see] –noun,plural-sies. 1. a pretense of having a virtuous character, moral or religious beliefs or principles, etc., that one does not really possess. 2. a pretense of having some desirable or publicly approved attitude. 3. an act or instance of hypocrisy. I don't see how the author misuses the word "hypocrisy" at all. It appears to me that his case relates to #2 above -…

That sort of presupposes a tone of sanctimony that I really don't get from the letter. I don't think Apple is trying to argue they're doing some kind of overall good, they've written a letter about how Flash conflicts with their strategic vision for their platform.

What specific parts do you think suggest feigned virtue? The parts where he claims to want a better environment for developers? That's the only place where I think you might have a toehold.

It must sort of suck to be Apple community relations right now. If you act according to your business plan, you get railed at for being imperious and arbitrary. If you then explain that business plan and your rationale, people immediately see it's not all nobility and grace and get pissed. The brand perception and loyalty that Apple has spent so much time building can certainly be a double-edged sword.

Re: Jobs on Flash: Hypocrisy So Thick You Could Cut it with a Knife

#92

Post by pohl »

Nwallins wrote: post #53
pohl wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why bother inventing an abstract normative claim when you can quote the actual (and only) one that appears in the document: "...we strongly believe that all standards pertaining to the web should be open." Now, proceed from there.

I think it's clear that a norm of using the Cocoa API is implied here: > Adobe has been painfully slow to adopt enhancements to Apple’s platforms. For example, although Mac OS X has been shipping for almost 10 years now, Adobe just adopted it fully (Cocoa) two weeks ago I was thinking specifically of the Cocoa norm -- which iTunes apparently does not meet -- I should have made that more clear. How much more open is H…

I think it's clear that a norm of using the Cocoa API is implied here:

I don't think it's that clear. I think it's more likely that it's a practical reason for the last sentence of he preceding paragraph:

Again, we cannot accept an outcome where developers are blocked from using our innovations and enhancements because they are not available on our competitor’s platforms.

They are establishing Adobe's track record of keeping current on underlying platform enhancements.

Re: Jobs on Flash: Hypocrisy So Thick You Could Cut it with a Knife

#93

Post by pohl »

telemachos wrote: post #76
pohl wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that you have to use the weasel-phrase "in effect" to put words in the mouth of Jobs and claim that "the author meets this standard". If you're so certain he's met the standard, provide an actual quotation rather than a straw man. Jobs made no such statement. Rather, he observed that Adobe was very slow in passing Apple's platform improvements on to its customers, and the implication here is that it would be unw…

Here is Steve Jobs verbatim: And Adobe has been painfully slow to adopt enhancements to Apple’s platforms. For example, although Mac OS X has been shipping for almost 10 years now, Adobe just adopted it fully (Cocoa) two weeks ago when they shipped CS5. Adobe was the last major third party developer to fully adopt Mac OS X. What the author points out is that it's odd (hypocritical?) for Jobs to pick on Adobe as the l…

The author is wrong here, because that sentence exists to support the decision to not allow Adobe to interpose themselves between Apple's platform APIs and developers. Neither the Finder nor iTunes presented an impediment to improving the platform because neither of them interpose in any significant manner. That they have managed to bring MacOS X this far without touching them is evidence of this.

Regardless, Apple's own development is under Apple's own control. The current question is why they are not willing to be at the mercy of a vendor that is not only beyond Apple's control, but also has an established history of lagging. You may not like their decision, but it is prudent, consistent with their stated values, and consistent with their actions.

The author did not understand the function of this paragraph, and based his attack on a faulty interpretation.

I'm surprised that so many denizens of HN seem to be having trouble with the concept of a chain of dependencies, and how that makes the cases of iTunes and the Finder very different.

Re: Jobs on Flash: Hypocrisy So Thick You Could Cut it with a Knife

#94

Post by zmmmmm »

glhaynes wrote: post #86
orangecat wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The claim here appears to be that since Apple ships Windows apps that don't use that platform to its fullest And Mac apps. iTunes and Final Cut Pro are still 32-bit Carbon, with no indication of that changing anytime soon.

The very fact that those are some of the things that have been criticized the most (the list would have had to have included Finder until a few months ago!) and with many cries to have them converted to Cocoa may reveal hypocrisy but it also proves Jobs' point: cross-platform, least-common-denominator stuff almost never provides the level of enjoyment that native, non-legacy stuff does. Many think the web has proven…

> it also proves Jobs' point: cross-platform, least-common-denominator stuff almost never provides the level of enjoyment that native, non-legacy stuff does

Not really. If the difference was that big, he would have devoted resources to porting his own software. Being the perfectionist he is, and not porting his own software, one has to conclude the differences just aren't that big.

Re: Jobs on Flash: Hypocrisy So Thick You Could Cut it with a Knife

#95

Post by nosnih »

VictorHo wrote: post #47
pohl wrote: post #2

I wish I knew why the concept of hypocrisy is so difficult to grasp that people are prone to apply it incorrectly. Maybe people just don't understand when someone is making a moral statement, and when someone isn't. The claim here appears to be that since Apple ships Windows apps that don't use that platform to its fullest, Jobs cannot claim that least-common-denominator middleware is unhealthy for a platform. That m…

From dictionary.com: hy·poc·ri·sy [hi-pok-ruh-see] –noun,plural-sies. 1. a pretense of having a virtuous character, moral or religious beliefs or principles, etc., that one does not really possess. 2. a pretense of having some desirable or publicly approved attitude. 3. an act or instance of hypocrisy. I don't see how the author misuses the word "hypocrisy" at all. It appears to me that his case relates to #2 above -…

What many people seem to be missing or ignoring is that he is primarily talking about Flash content on websites.

Jobs said all standards pertaining to the web should be open, not all software. He admits that they have proprietary systems for native apps.

Apple believes that browsing the web should not require a proprietary plugin. I don't see any hypocrisy in that.

Re: Jobs on Flash: Hypocrisy So Thick You Could Cut it with a Knife

#96

Post by zmmmmm »

aneth wrote: post #7

The only people I know defending Adobe and Flash are Flash developers and Adobe itself. Everybody else tolerates Flash begrudgingly. I miss a few flash games here and there on my iPhone. Beyond that, good riddance. Flash is the RealPlayer of the decade.

I defend Flash in the same way I defend people people's right to free speech even when I violently disagree with them.

Re: Jobs on Flash: Hypocrisy So Thick You Could Cut it with a Knife

#97

Post by Nwallins »

pohl wrote: post #92
Nwallins wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's clear that a norm of using the Cocoa API is implied here: > Adobe has been painfully slow to adopt enhancements to Apple’s platforms. For example, although Mac OS X has been shipping for almost 10 years now, Adobe just adopted it fully (Cocoa) two weeks ago I was thinking specifically of the Cocoa norm -- which iTunes apparently does not meet -- I should have made that more clear. How much more open is H…

I think it's clear that a norm of using the Cocoa API is implied here: I don't think it's that clear. I think it's more likely that it's a practical reason for the last sentence of he preceding paragraph: Again, we cannot accept an outcome where developers are blocked from using our innovations and enhancements because they are not available on our competitor’s platforms. They are establishing Adobe's track record of…

> I think it's more likely that it's a practical reason

> They are establishing Adobe's track record of keeping current on underlying platform enhancements.

None of that refutes whether or not Apple considers using the Cocoa API exclusively as a norm. I think it's quite clear that they do. Are you really suggesting otherwise?

Re: Jobs on Flash: Hypocrisy So Thick You Could Cut it with a Knife

#98

Post by rafa8a »

GrandMasterBirt wrote: post #46

YES Thank god. The video codec is 100x worse than flash. At least SWF is open, so you can generate SWF files royalty free from adobe. H264 aint quite that. I tunes sucks, hate it, and no itunes for linux. Hey remember itunes + palm? Yea? We're open my ass. If Apple is so devoted to breaking people free of proprietary crap explain the itunes-palm pre wars.

They have the right to control their platform. We as consumers can decide to buy or not to buy those products.
Post reply on HN